Voice and Fist

Yesterday, I marched through Hollywood with my mom, her friend, and about 100,000 other people. We raised our fists and joined our voice to millions of other voices around the world. We sent a clear message to the Bush administration: This is just the beginning. We will stop your war machine. Your policies endanger America, and enrage the world.
I hope you are paying attention, Mr. Bush. The masses are speaking — the world is speaking — and we are rebuking you, your plutocracy, and everything you represent. Your time is over, Mr. Bush. The Supreme Court can not silence the voice of the world, as it silenced the voice of the American people. It is time for you to fade into history.
I hope that those who politically oppose Mr. Bush are also paying attention. There is a minority, on the cusp of becoming a majority, who are anxiously awaiting your leadership. Rise to the challenge, and give us representation in our government. Greens? Libertarians? Democrats? Who will represent the people? This is your moment. Do not squander it.
Peace.
UPDATE: Thank you, Senator Byrd.
UPDATE: I understand the visceral reactions that come when reading a post like this. If you’d like to comment or discuss, you are welcome to go to the Soapbox.

263 thoughts on “Voice and Fist”

  1. Said bRaD:
    “I don’t like war, and I don’t like living in a police state, but it is a fact of life right now, and I don’t feel like I’ve given up any freedoms aside from seeing more visible police around. ”
    Well, bully for you! You sound like my mother, for Maude’s sake. Have ya been felt up at an airport lately (http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000420.php)? Got any kids in high school that they can use for cannon fodder (http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1207-02.htm) (a favorite idea of Hitler’s, BTW)?
    Once we go to being a police state (many would argue we’re already there), we’ll most likely never go back. Not without total, utter revolution.
    What that means is that the current police state is our new future, not something we can get rid of when Bush’s little joyride is over.
    Just because you haven’t noticed any of your freedoms being eroded doesn’t mean it’s not happening. And if Patriot 2 and Total Information Awareness (run by utter slimeball and ex-con John Poindexter) go all the way through, you may as well go all the way yourself & put up the telescreen. Believe me, when you finally notice how it affects you, it’ll be way too late.
    That said, I’m not sure I understand the nature of this “Minority Report” approach to Iraq.
    Iraq “might” attack us, people say. What about North Korea, who have WMD as well as the means to distribute? Oh, wait, they don’t have a finite natural resource (which our Ruler and his second-in-command have made their fortunes in) that’s almost gone that needs controlling by some white, Christian GoodDoers.
    From where I sit, that old coot in Pyongyang makes Hussein look like a kitty-petting, relatively powerless (though still dangerous, I realize) crackpot.
    Saddam gassed his own people!! Yeah, with gas supplied by the US. It’s not like we haven’t been gassed by our own government or anything (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=minneapolis+sprayed+army).
    Oh, whatever. I’m so damn cynical, I know. But when the non-left’s starting to bitch about Bush, you know something’s afoot:
    “Why Iraq, for instance, and not North Korea — a member of Bush’s “Axis Of Evil” that we know has nuclear capability and is flaunting attempts to monitor it?”
    “Yes, America has ruthless enemies, and they’re hard to fight because they’re hidden and widely dispersed. But none of this vast, looming expansion of federal control is targeted at them — it’s targeted us, millions and millions of ordinary Americans whom [the government] distrusts and believe they need to monitor endlessly.”
    Both quotes from Claire Wolfe, a decidedly un-“liberal” writer and commentator.
    Anyway, sorry this is so long. I just couldn’t resist.

  2. What I read , Dear Daniel on your link is that Barcelona had 1.3 million followed by Madrid which had 880,000. There were additional demonstrations which added up to “hundreds of thousand more in the rest of Spain .” So, let’s see, 1.3 million plus 880,000 = 2.18 million. Add say 900,000 for the rest of Spain and that is 3 million. In other words, 2.5 million less than you stated. I will concede, however, that over the past 2 days, the figure I gave at 6 million is now probably out of date as it was for a single day. Nevertheless, the TOTAL NUMBER OF PROTESTORS, COMPARED TO WORLD POPULATION IS TINY. Even in the EU, with a population of 380+ million, not even 5% of the inhabitants protested. In your case, Spain, about 10% did. Woo hoo! Minority rule!

  3. Instead of you idiots protesting for the protection of a murdering psychopath, why don’t you morons protest his refusal to follow UN resolutions and turn over his W of MD. Why? Because you are pacifist wussies. Appease, appease appease and more appeasement. Think real son of a bitch of it is, when Saddam DOES use these weapons against the TRUELY innocent, you will still blame Bush for doing NOTHING.
    Truely idiotic!
    By the way, is Saddam doesn’t have any chemical or biological weapons, why has he just threatned to use them if attacked, and distributed Chemical suits to troops in Baghdad?
    Chamberlain would be proud, but not as proud as Hitler.
    MORONS!

  4. Iraq “might” attack us, people say. What about North Korea, who have WMD as well as the means to distribute?
    ***
    I big problem that happens to share a border with China, possibly has a nuclear weapon or two and has several thousand pieces of artillerly aimed at Seoul. I am all for getting rid of Kim Jong il. It is more problematic to do so. But you have to start somewhere. Why not Iraq?
    Oh, wait, they don’t have a finite natural resource (which our Ruler and his second-in-command have made their fortunes in) that’s almost gone
    ***
    If we just wanted oil, it would be easier to take over Mexico, Venezeuela or even Saudi Arabia…
    that needs controlling by some white, Christian GoodDoers.
    ***
    Why make the mindless comments about race?
    From where I sit, that old coot in Pyongyang makes Hussein look like a kitty-petting, relatively powerless (though still dangerous, I realize) crackpot.
    ***
    So, will you publicly sign off here and state you advocate going to war with North Korea?
    Saddam gassed his own people!! Yeah, with gas supplied by the US. It’s not like we haven’t been gassed by our own government or anything
    ***
    He rolled his on…

  5. To any of those who protested for “peace” this weekend, how many of you also have protested in the last 12 years against Saddam’s repeated lies to the UN, weapons violations, invasion of Kuwait, gassing of Kurds etc.? Just curious.
    Peace at any cost is not really peace. It is a dangerous illusion.

  6. Does anyone remember September 11th? Do you really though? You know that Osama would love to do something a hundred times worse right? You know he would need the backing of a state to acquire fissionable material right? Like, oh, I don’t know, Iraq maybe? The threat isn’t Iraq attacking but selling their WMD or ‘mis-placing’ them. Blix himself has said that there are TONS of chemical weapons MISSING! Saddam says he destroyed them but can’t prove it. Not good enough damn it. And Wil, you’re crazy to think you’re in the majority. Over eighty per cent of Americans support a war with Iraq. If you even want to call what will happen a war. Persian Gulf I the score was 148 to 30, 000 our favor. Let’s clean up this mess now so our grandchildren don’t have to worry about it.

  7. Lisa B-K et all,
    I have one question: why hasn’t there been another major attack on American soil since 9/11?
    Here are the positions I see:
    A) None have been plotted.
    B) Planned attacks have been thwarted.
    C) Warnings thwart the element of surprise causing those who would attack us to change our plans at the last minute.
    D) Terrorists believe that Americans are arrogant airheads who will rise up against their government and quickly forget the aggressions of years past like 9/11 (not to mention that these same Americans won’t give a crap if the terrorists bomb other areas around the globe). If they continue to threat and cause the government to put out warnings, then the “Boy who cried ‘Wolf'” syndrome will agitate these Americans to such a degree that they will become more believing in the propaganda of the rest of the world hating Americans and become sympathetic to our cause because they are such idiots.
    If you believe A, is the answer, then you are naive. If you believe B or C, then what the heck is your gripe? My fear is that their plot is more like D, and people like you are supporting that opinion.
    I HAVE been patted down at the airports. I have surrendered two $20 Leatherman Micra pocketknives because I forgot to pack it in my checked luggage. Have you noticed what has happened to airports lately though? They’re not nearly as overbearing as they once were. There are no more “lets take everything out of your luggage in front of everyone” searches at the gates anymore. People got tired of it, and security took a step back to reality. The acts you mention are more permanent and nature, and believe it or not, I agree with you on some points regarding our freedoms, but with regards to the way we are CURRENTLY living, I don’t have a problem with how things have been handled.
    As for the topic of Iraq at hand:
    Did Saddam lie 17 times? YES — that is not disputable.
    Is his country weaker than it was in 1991? YES — that is not disputable.
    Will he be more dangerous if left to continue the same crap he’s been doing for the last 12 years? YES — that is not disputable.
    If 12 years wasn’t enough, how long is?

  8. I don’t disagree that Saddam is dangerous. I don’t disagree that the world, and Iraq, would be better off if he weren’t in power. I do, however, think that Bush’s motives aren’t as simple as truth, justice, and the American way. His rhetoric seems clear-cut enough, but his administration has a disturbing history of obfuscation. His refusal to even entertain alternative viewpoints, his tendency to label dissent unpatriotic, is downright frightening. Bush is not interested in multifaceted discourse, among U.S. citizens or among our allies. No matter how “right” his supporters think he is, no matter how convincing his speeches seem, that makes him dangerous as well.

  9. “The Only people who agree with Wil Forum”***
    You do not know how true that is. I was the author of the “To h*ll with the world comment”
    Since that time Wil has FORBIDEN me from wilwheaton.net. (not just the forum) the I’m talking about /index.php
    I had to go to my neighbors house to even make this post.
    I’m sure my neighbor is now BANNED too—(Sorry “Mike my neighbor”)
    I guess only Wil is allowed to “Post when emotional”.
    I understand that Will pays for this space and can do whatever he wants, but then why does he pretend to “respect other opinions”?
    If you want a truely Open forum, please help me.
    ASK Wil let me back in.
    Diversity is the spice of life.
    Post your request to Wil now!
    ASK Wil let me back in.
    “This is what democracy looks like?”
    Thanks
    TJ

  10. Wil,
    I don’t know what the guy is talking about, but let TJ alias Tom, back in!
    Pretty please with sugar and spice and everything nice!
    FOR CHRIST’S SAKE LET HIM BACK IN!

  11. TJ:
    I think you should be let back on. I was wondering where you’d disappeared to while everyone was taking pot shots at your ass over your comment. Despite the fact that I’ve been told I’m very European (consider this: I’m American), I sometimes agree with your view of “screw the world.”
    Why is it that other countries in the world are allowed to do things to further their own agendas without fear of being verbally whipped by the world community, but when the US goes to further one of our own agendas, we’re being selfish and not a part of the world community? Keep in mind, France has contracts with Iraq. Are they really concerned about millions of innocent Iraqis, or what’s going to happen to their supply of oil? The blade slices both ways.
    The UN is bunch of freaking wussies. “Let’s talk this out.” In the mean time, So-damn Insane is playing hot potato with things he’s not supposed to have (how else are you going to explain a couple of Iraqi soldiers getting so worked up over something they’re afraid the UN inspectors might find? Gee, I wonder). The UN isn’t going to do a damn thing.
    And in the mean time, mr. asshole is over there, spreading lies about the US and any country that will support us, telling them how bad we are. Um, hi, hello, where the hell have I been for the past 21 years of my life? I don’t see a damn government appointed official riding around with foreign press, making sure I say the right things. If I wanted to go out and say “I hate my country! Fuck America!” I could. In Iraq, if you said that, they’d chop your damn head off.
    Wil, I respect your opinion, it’s your site, do what you want with it. But a lot more people have been way more caustic and antagonistic than TJ was. I don’t always agree with the screw the world attitude, but when everyone’s against you and telling you how horrible you are, it’s time to strike out on your own. I’m sick of watching us try to be a part of the world community when it’s obvious they only want us when they need us.
    I have friends from all over the world. Some agree with what’s happening, some don’t. But we have our opinions and I respect them for that. Like I said, I have no wish to see friends and family of mine (or anybody else’s, for that matter) go to war. But if it’s gotta be done, it’s gotta be done. The longer you leave a sliver in, the more chances it will fester and leave you with a bigger scar that you would have had if you took it out in the first place. Saddam is a splinter. Let’s take him out before he becomes a gaping wound.
    And for the record: Anybody here who thinks we would carpet-bomb Baghdad is nuts. There’s this thing called urban warfare. I can almost guarantee we’d go in that way before moving on to more drastic measures.
    Free speech, baby!

  12. Thanks NYC!
    That’s one vote for the 1st ammendment!
    Please Wil, listen to the crys from your people.
    THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE!
    TJ

  13. Voice and Delete Button
    Wil,
    I like your acting, I like reading about your journey. But we couldn’t disagree more re: iraq. With that in mind, I respectfully am pulling you off my blogroll. I wanted to let you know, because I wanted to thank you for your writing. It is nothing personal, really. You have a right to your beliefs. What I wish you would understand is that it is blood on the ground that purchased the freedom to express your anti-war sentiments. Not marches. Not protests. Guns, bullets, and blood. Sad, but true. If everyone could be rationally reasoned with, Wil, there would be no war. I’m sorry we disagree on this.
    With all respect, Rae

  14. Wil, thanks for your comments and exercising your rights to free speech and political dissent. While not all of us agree with each other here, from what I’ve read anyway — at least we’re free to discuss our feelings and fears. Of course there are exceptions, but most of the people posting here seem to be thoughtful and informed — which does allow them to take positions on whatever side of this conflict they see fit.
    You know, I have NO problem with someone supporting this war — providing they do it in a rational manner. Wil has asked us to be respectful here and state our positions, not resort to name-calling.
    Unfortunately, there are namecallers and children who are posting here — on both sides. But it seems to me that the Pro-War babies are so much more virulent and make it less than pleasant.
    If the best you Pro-War folks can do is call antiwar protestors childish names, then you do your cause real harm. Dev 1, Dev 2, and others who figure the rest of the world can go to Hell as long as America gets to do what it wants — you’re wrong, and your pigheaded reactions provide at least one good reason why we should stop this headlong rush to war and examine what’s really going on here.
    That being said, it’s my observation that our government appears to have a real woody for war and they haven’t convinced ME that it’s necessary yet.
    Just remember that war the last resort. It’s the failure of diplomacy. If some of the yammering I’ve seen on this discussion area is demonstrative of the kinds of minds our White House claims are part of the “American People” who support the war, then I’d say our butts are screwed.
    Tell me something — are any of the Pro-War namecallers who are so eager to sling spittle at your fellow Americans who don’t agree with you — are YOU going to be fighting this war?
    No, I didn’t think so.
    It’s always SO much easier to sit in front of your screens calling other people’s patriotism into question because they don’t happen to agree with you.
    For those of us who are in the U.S., as far as I know, we still have the right to our opinions and free speech. How we choose to use them is an individual’s right. But don’t sit there and rant with drool running down your chin just because some of us don’t agree that war is the ONLY way to solve this crisis.
    War may be the final solution, but right now it isn’t the only one.
    What is so hard about taking a good, long look at what is going on? Why is it if I call for MY questions to be answered, that I ask MY president and his cronies to make an honest case for war — why does that make me, or any American who asks the questions we are supposed to ask as citizens — why does that make us unpatriotic? or hippies? What’s wrong with being peaceloving? When did being morally opposed to war become anti-American?
    To the others from other countries who read and write here: not all of us here in the U.S. are as rabid as our government. Some of us (many of us, I’d say) are filled with disgust and dismay at our government’s headlong rush to failure.
    Please don’t lump all Americans in with those who care so little for other people’s thoughts and opinions that they would gag them with shouts of “unpatriotic” and “peace-loving hippies” and sever those rights with illegal laws.
    Many of us against this war have paid our dues to this country. It has been done in ways that those infected with the fever of war will never understand.
    *************************
    Now, for at least one kudo: the folks who DO have to fight this war deserve our support. They don’t have a choice about having to go to war — they elected to serve their country and now they will be asked to pay the price for diplomacy’s failures. So, even if you don’t support the war, please support the brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers, etc. who will be on the front lines. They didn’t start the war, they just have to fight it.
    To Mary at Ramstein: good on you guys! I have relatives and friends who served in the military and so it puts a human face on it for me. MY thoughts are with you all.
    Finally, back to Wil: sorry to ramble on. Thanks for providing the space. And thanks for doing what you do.

  15. I wish the people who say they are for peace would come up with a reasonable suggestion as to what avenue would get us there. Criticism they’ve got by the truckload, suggestions? Nuthin.

  16. Senator Byrd’s opinion was right on the money.
    What about North Korea, don’t they have nuclear capable weapons ready now? Instead of worrying about what might be let’s worry about what is.
    One enemy is one too many, a thousand friends too few.

  17. maybe byrd is a racist bastard, but at least he has his values straight in the iraq peace/war issue. it is, however, unfortunate that he is one of the only ones speaking up for peace- write to your senators!!! we need to make more voices for peace heard on the senate floor, where it counts!
    thanks for linking to byrd’s speech, wil. also, you used to have a NION link at the top of the site. that’s how i first heard about it. could you put that back up? thanks!

  18. I for one am a disabled veteran of 12+ years in the United States Air Force. I served overseas and in the USA. I served through Desert Shield/Storm.
    I take my freedom seriously, I take War seriously, I have many friends that are in Kuwait and UEA right now.
    I pray for their safety and respect the sacrifice they make to defend our freedom in the USA.
    Please keep the Posts coming to WIL.
    Let Tom back in!
    This is what democracy looks like”
    Thanks
    TJ

  19. Here is an example of a person whose views are different from Wil’s & many others who come to this site that is respectful & hence thought provoking:
    “If you could have prevented the bombing of Pearl Harbor would of you?
    If you could have prevented 911 would of you?
    That is why Iraq must be stopped. The way to stop Acts of Terror is not to sit down and talk to people that refuse to talk. The only way is to take away the power of evil leaders and give the power to the people.
    The reason that America is a nation today, is due the idea of representation. We were unfairly represented to Britain. This is also the case in Iraq, what other choice do the people have then to vote for him? We have a responsibility as Americans, the remaining super power on this planet, to protect the rights of our people and the rights of all of this worlds people. If we have to send and lose some of our soldiers in the name of human rights and democracy then so be it.
    To those who say that Iraq has fully cooperated. How has he fully cooperated? By giving us ACCESS to all of their palaces? By telling us how they destroyed all their weapons of mass destruction? Or by training scientists is what to say? Now tell me have they fully cooperated?
    Posted by NT at February 16, 2003 12:07 PM ”
    Now, I may not agree w/ this person’s political thinking, but I have respect for this person for expressing thoughts in a non-insulting manner.
    If this person were banned from the site for expressing an arguement that opposes Wil’s thoughts, that would be wrong.
    However, those who say things like “idiots,” “wusses,” “to hell with the rest of the world,” do not provide opposing arguements that are worthy of any consideration. I have no problem w/ them being banned since they have nothing positive to contribute to the conversation. It sux that it happens, but sometimes these people have a way of hi-jacking an important discussion & bringing it down to their level.
    Also, I’d like to say that it is annoying and frustrating to hear similar insults & rhetoric from the other side [now switching to "Wil's" side]. Seems like there are immature people who are incapable of intelligent discourse on both sides. Its embarrassing. Let’s refrain from words like “shithead” -even if the other guy started it first. There are people whose political thinking seems to be along the same line as Wils -and not too far from my own- yet they express these thoughts rather poorly. I’m disappointed. Hopefully, these people who cross the line [even tho' their political thinking is similar to Wil's] face the same scrutiny & banning as the opposing view points that get banned.
    I think a lot of people on both sides need to really think about what they say before they say it. Emotions seem to get the better of some of you. Your prejudices seem to get in the way. I know, its tough, I have certain prejudices of my own which I am trying to rid myself of. When I start to feel they are clouding my ability to think clearly & express myself positively, I just shut up until I’m calmed down. Maybe some of you should do this, also.

  20. Mr. Wheaton,
    I am a part of this so called war machine that you and your fellow actors and artists have routinely protested against. I have been a part of the US Navy for the better part of two years. We as a nation have always been fickle about what we think that other nations should be doing for their people. My fellow soldiers and sailors do not share your sentiment. We are all volounteers and are sworn to do this duty and follow orders. We are american citizens and have the same civil liberties as those of you who routinely complain about the policy of our commander in cheif, but there is a difference between you and I. I choose to fight for those same civil liberties that you and your fellow protesters abuse. In this time of impending conflict one must look back…in history to Jane Fonda and what she did to undermine the morale and welfare of american soldiers in the conflict of Vietnam. One cannot forget the stories told to us by the POW’s who suffered because of her actions. Actions which caused the death of numerous POW’s which she thought as the agressors and not the defender’s of freedom that you take so liberally. As someone who may not be in the spotlight anymore but who influence’s people on this website and in the public, Mr. Wheaton, those of us who strive everyday to protect you and every other American in this great nation behoove you to support the soldiers and sailors who follow the orders of the President regardless of the motives behind those orders. I have always been a big fan of yours and watched Star Trek for years. Please do not give me and my fellow sailors and soldiers reason to lose faith in the american public as you have lost faith in our President. After all we elected him regardless of his policy and we have to deal with that. Keep faith in God that we will find the right course and pray for those of us who are on the front lines putting our lives in peril so that you may protest.

  21. Dev Brown
    Shouldn’t you be posting your answers to peoples posts on the forums.
    This area seems to be for posting comments on Wil’s posts
    “BEFORE YOU COMMENT READ THIS
    Please keep your comments related to the current post.
    Please do not use this comment system as a BBS. We have a BBS here, and all readers are encouraged to register and join the community.”
    I’d just like to read what people think about the issues Wil raises and not what you think about their posts.
    It strikes me as a little unfair as most people wont even know you have commented on their opinions.
    Will be happy to read what you think in the Forums though, just not here.
    And yes i know this isn’t my site to police. I just think it’s polite.

  22. I have to leave my neighbors house now…
    But for the record…
    I did not do the name calling (idiots,” “wusses) Those people are still free to post, I know because they have contined to do so.
    I expressed a view point that could have been put in a more PC way but I did not.
    The people who equate President Bush with Hitler and Stalin are also free to post.
    I have paid for my freedom!
    I do not believe the Military is for everyone so I would never degrade those who have not served.
    The Volunteer Military are low paid, over worked, and disrespected by those they serve and liberate.
    If Wil decides not to remove the ban I guess he has the right since he pays for the site. I just find it ironic that he supports free speach except when he does not agree with it.
    I obviously cannot sit in my neighbors house everyday, but I will miss reading Wil’s site. I have been a regular vistor for over 6 months now and until 3 days ago never made a post.
    Wil: If it helps Wesley was my favorite character on TNG!
    so farewell, so long and goodbye
    TJ

  23. NYC
    I’m posting here rather than in the earlier post because I think that both discussions are centred on the same thing and that this one is more up to date.
    First of all, thanks for the support on the alias-theft thing. I’m very upset that my alias was used by someone else, and that you in particular were mislead by this scumball. I value our discussions a great deal, and its infuriating when this sort of thing happens. You are welcome (as always) to e-mail me directly if you wish to.
    I would, however, like to disagree on one of your earlier points. namely, this one…
    “Saddam is the most respected guy in the world to you types.”
    This is not true. It certainly was not the case during the march. Many of the Members of Parliament who spoke were voliceferous in their condemnation of Saddam. You need to understand that we neither support, appease or coddle this guy – it is the huge and horrendous level of civilain casualties that we are opposed to. 100,000 to 500,000 estimated civilian deaths, in the space of two days, is beyond sick. I cannot see how dropping 800+ cruise missiles on the Iraqi people will help their situation. My mind and soul (and bear in mind that I am far from christian) cringe from the thought of that many deaths in so short a time. The concept itself cheapens life.
    Saddam himself is evil beyond evil. I believe that when I die I will be afforded the chance to watch “saddam TV” along with “Hitler TV”- ie “lets see what unending suffering the demons in hell will visit upon these two FUCKING EVIL MONSTERS today?”. I believe that I will be able to watch them suffer for eternity for their crimes. Make no mistake. I would support action to topple Saddam if the cause was just, but in war you have to weigh up the losses against the gains. I don’t believe that, with the present information and the current situation, that war is justifiable.
    the report from Hans Blix listed both successes and failures, but the successes are very telling. New laws passed governing the destruction of weapons, actual action being taken to destroy weapons. They may not outweigh the failures on Saddams part, but I don’t think that the failures justify war. Because a war would kill more of the people we want to help than the sickos we want to destroy.
    I am fully aware of Saddams crimes, and they cry out beyond this physical realm. But if we carpet bomb Iraq, and end up killing hundreds of thousands of innocents to remove a few evil-doers…won’t we become just as bad.
    Whats the differance between watching a person dissolve in acid…and watching a village or town vaporise under a Daisy Cutter (to destroy one outpost), and not care?
    not much. Its still murder.

  24. If the best you Pro-War folks can do is call antiwar protestors childish names, then you do your cause real harm.
    ***
    Will himself used very loaded terms like the “Bush-Junta” in his posts…
    Dev 1, Dev 2, and others who figure the rest of the world can go to Hell as long as America gets to do what it wants — you’re wrong,
    ***
    And now you are misrepresenting my views…
    and your pigheaded reactions provide at least one good reason why we should stop this headlong rush to war and examine what’s really going on here.
    ***
    So, you criticize me for supposedly being rude, then are extremely rude yourself?
    Just remember that war the last resort. It’s the failure of diplomacy.
    ***
    Uh ok. So diplomacy sometimes fails. What a surprise…
    Tell me something — are any of the Pro-War namecallers who are so eager to sling spittle at your fellow Americans who don’t agree with you — are YOU going to be fighting this war?
    ***
    I’m still waiting on the answer to my question for you peacenik types regarding protests against Iraq…
    It’s always SO much easier to sit in front of your screens calling other people’s patriotism into question because they don’t happen to agree with you.
    ***
    It is even easier to complain about war with Iraq– yet offer no constructive counter-proposal other than “peace” and “hope everything is ok.”
    What is so hard about taking a good, long look at what is going on?
    ***
    You mean like say, 12 years?
    those who care so little for other people’s thoughts and opinions that they would gag them with shouts of “unpatriotic” and “peace-loving hippies” and sever those rights with illegal laws.
    ***
    Seems the only one gagging anyone here is the very liberal Wil…

  25. Speaking of tired rhetoric… “You guys talk and talk that ‘war is never the answer’ yet offer no viable solutions yourselves.” (First let me point out few of us say that, as war prevented Great Britain from being invaded by Germany.) I’m really tired of this whole “not offering solutions ourselves” nonsense. The assumption in that is that we see Saddam Hussein to be as much of a threat as you do. Yes, he’s a petty dictator, but if he didn’t invade Kuwait (with American permission, at first) he wouldn’t even register in the Western consciousness. But such great work was done in painting him as Satan incarnate during the Gulf War, that leaving him in power has left those images to fester.
    Is he bad? Yes. Does he kill his own people? Undoubtedly. Is he the worst Evil Dictator out there? No. Pop quiz: Without going off and researching, how many dictators and/or bloody regimes currently in place today can you name, other than Hussein and Castro? Now, go off and research how many more are out there, then tell me why you haven’t shown the slightest damn about the people under their thumb before you exclaim how a war that will kill innocent Iraqi people is great because you want to help innocent Iraqi people.
    I’m also wondering about how the logic behind “pre-emptive attacks” works. By using it, doesn’t that mean Iraq, who is under the very serious threat of attack from the U.S. and Great Britain, now has a right to attack those nations first? The use of “It’s coming right for us!” (Who knew Trey Parker and Matt Stone were visionaries?) as an excuse for war is going to have profound effects on our world and the repercussions are going to be severe. It’s not wise to use it, no matter how much oil… Oh, there’s oil at stake? Never mind. Not that it’s about the oil. It’s about innocent Iraqis! No, it’s about terrorism! But it’s not about the oil. No sir, no how.

  26. EnglishBen, kindly note that my first post was well after this thread got going and those before me were already responding to each other’s posts, including Wil himself. Hence, I fidn it rather unfair to be singled out for criticism…

  27. Tabby, your arguement presupposes (incorrectly) that just because there are other dictators and injustices in the world, the US can/should/must repond to all of them. That is a fallacy. The US should repond to the ones it decides to, not out of some rigid code that you want it to ascribe. As for Saddam, you can claim he was “demonized” by the West all you want, but Human Rights Watch, AI and others clearly report on his atrocities- yet lift nary a finger to stop them, just like you. Instead, you actually try to hinder those that might so you can play your intellectual morality games. The WHO estimate are ridiculous made by people who are not military experts. Carpet bombing? Silly! I doubt Bush truly cares about “saving” Iraqis from Saddam, but so what if it results in that happening? If someone stops you from being mugged, do you really care why?

  28. i’m sorry to say this but i agree that we should attack iraq… that is just my veiw and i know many wont agree with me… yes i know that many innocent people are going to die but how many are going to be saved?
    well i should be going off to iraq with the british army but they discharged me after i failed a medical (i’m deaf in one ear) and i’d be happy to go…
    elias xxx

  29. If we choose not to go to war with Iraq because of the protestations of other countries and people here in the US, I’m fine with that. But if, IF, Iraq ends up going on a major terror offensive against other countries in that region we should just sit back and watch. The world didn’t want us to be agressive about Iraq so we shouldn’t be. No matter what. And we’ll see how they like it then.
    Rich

  30. Ok so
    a) It’s Wils Blog. Go figure.
    and
    b)
    The excuse “well everyone else is doing it” died out when i was 8.
    I realise there is a high degree of Hypocrisy in me replying to you but i will stop from now on.
    It part of the agreement of using this. Use the forums. That’s what they are there for.

  31. “If someone stops you from being mugged, do you really care why?”
    If it meant throwing the mugger in jail, beating him up, or gunning him down before he commits the crime, then I’d really rather he not be stopped. If it meant having the full force of the law hanging over his head as the consequence of him attacking me, then go for it. Here’s the thing… Iraq wasn’t responsible for Sept. 11. If they ever do attack the United States, then go after them with my blessing.

  32. Tony Blair’s actual quote (since this will be far underneath Scott’s post where he quoted it correctly – thank you!)
    “I do not seek unpopularity as a badge of honour. But sometimes it is the price of leadership. And the cost of conviction.”
    What I hear in that is him saying that he doesn’t care what the people think or want. He – as an individual has a conviction and he is going to stand by it. That is not a democratic way of doing things when one is supposed to be repesentative of the people.

  33. http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
    “These are our enemies.”…funny how US Presidents are blamed for the Viet Nam deaths….Does that mean we get to blame Bush for all the wars HE gets us into? Does that also mean HIS name will be on this list too???…
    I read the book “Johnny got his gun” and I saw Wil’s movie “December”. Some actors, you never know if theyre for real or not. Do they care? Is it just a job for them? The 70’s went through the John and Yoko protests and no one believed them. I believe Wil. He hasnt given me any reason NOT TO.

  34. Wil-
    As much as I truly, truly wish you were right about a change in leadership. However, events over the past several months have given me cause to be pessimistic – W’s high approval ratings, the mid-term elections, the accelerating pace of political changes being railroaded down our throats with little or no official dissent..
    Makes me want to have my head frozen for a couple of generations or so..

  35. Link to a CBS article about administration plans to carpet-bomb Baghdad: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/24/eveningnews/main537928.shtml
    Link to an AP article about US failure to bring peace to Afghanistan: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030212/pl_nm/afghanistan_congress_dc_1 Note the line about Afghan women – they’re back in burqas, and no safer than they were before the war.
    We did set up good governments in Japan and Germany, but that was sixty years ago. I don’t trust the current administration to do the same, especially given what’s happened in Afghanistan.

  36. I respect all of you who oppose the war, and appreciate your desire for peace, but “Peace in our Time” wasn’t a possibility for Neville Chamberlan, and it isn’t one for us, in my view.
    A note to all of you who oppose the war: Stop hurling insults at Bush, he is not listening. You don’t need to convince him, you need to convince middle America. Right now, despite the marches, most Americans still support the war. Here is how I imagine the average person sees it:
    * Get rid of another terrorist “safe house” nation.
    * Get rid of a source of terrorist funding.
    * Get rid of a ruthless dictator who has murdered people in the seven-figure range.
    * Prevent a dictator from getting WMD that he would surely use against us, or another nation.
    * Cheap gas (Let’s be honest, ok?)
    * Give Iraq a chance to form a democracy.
    * Snub the French
    * Less Iraqis would be killed in a war than Saddam would have killed himself in a year.
    Some or all of these points might be false, but this is what is believed. This is where the peace movement SHOULD focus its energy.
    I’ve looked at what the anti-war people have to say so far: Bush = Hitler. Amerikka = terrorist state. No blood for Oil.
    What we need is a reasoned arguement for why the world (or the US) will be better with Saddam in power, or why we should keep the inspections going when they haven’t worked in 12 years.
    “Bush is an idiot” isn’t going to sway anyone. Even people who support the war know he’s dumb.
    With Vietnam, the anti-war people did manage to sway public opinion and bring about change. It can be done again. Stop yelling at Bush and Blair, and talk to the rest of us. We ARE listening.
    Thanks for reading.

  37. a) It’s Wils Blog. Go figure.
    ***
    So, then maybe he shold follow his own rules?
    The excuse “well everyone else is doing it” died out when i was 8.
    ***
    You misunderstood me. I wans’t making an excuse to you since one is not required. As you pointed out, it si not your thread either. I was pointing out that you are hypocritical in your condemnation, and still are.
    I realise there is a high degree of Hypocrisy in me replying to you but i will stop from now on.
    ***
    Stop while you are ahead…

  38. It’s great to see that the US has some people who realise that this is NOT a game of cowboys and indians….it’s real.
    It is the to the shame of Bush and the Republicans that the post 911 sympathy has completely evaporated worldwide. Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism ala Bin Laden….it is seen around the world as an excuse to divert attention form the failure to get OBL.
    The insane idea that Americans should now “seal” their house from terrorism with plastic and duct tape is simply a tactic to genetrate public support for the war.
    America YOU ARE BEING DUPED!

  39. Link to a CBS article about administration plans to carpet-bomb Baghdad:
    ***
    It dos nto say the word “carpet” one time in it. *Sigh* Please go look up what the term “carpet bombing” means. Hint, it is a lot more indiscriminate and massive than 800 cruise missiles…
    Afghan women – they’re back in burqas, and no safer than they were before the war.
    ***
    Oh, so they still cannot work and go to school like it was under the Taliban???

  40. Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism ala Bin Laden….
    ***
    Well, since you’ve said that, it sure is good enough for me! ;-) I’ll sleep better now… NOT!

  41. Fluffy,
    It too like our discussions. I don’t know how much gets done, but it is always interesting. And I hope the jackhole that used your screen name would grow a pair and use his damn own! Sorry about my French.
    So…
    First, an attack would not be necessary if Saddam would turn his weapons over to the UN. Bush and myself would prefer for that to happen. Lets face facts Saddam hasn’t cooperated in over 12 years, he isn’t going to start now. When the invasion does occur, only military units will be targeted. We are not to blame if Saddam places legitimate targets amongst civilians, do you really think so? We will not daisy-cutter a city, military targets perhaps, but no a city. We may, unfortunately, use a nuke if provoked by using biological or chemical weapons on our troops or our allies. We can’t control that. Saddma is to blame for this whole thing. Don’t you agree?
    Second, Blix must be the dumbest creature in the known universe, these new laws to end the import of W of MD, that means before the new law it was perfectly legal to import these weapons. We are supposed to believe ANY thing Saddam says? Or any law he makes? Saddam lies like a snake in the grass.
    Thirdly, NO WEAPONS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED BY THE UN. NONE! The inspectors found some empty warheads that Saddam said didn’t exsist, yes those are to be destroyed. Saddam says he as NO weapons. By the way it was the wonderful French that demanded in the last resolution against Saddam, that the inspectors role to be toned down from what the US wanted; in order to give what the US wanted NO NECESSARY second resulution to go to war with Saddam! He is in material breach, he has delivered no weapons, he hasn’t disclosed how any were ‘destroyed’, he refuses to allow scientists to talk with the inspectors without ‘moral support’, he demands to know the locations of inspections BEFORE the inspectors are allowed to go there, he refuses U2 flights over Iraq and threatens to shoot them down unless we end the no-fly restrictions in northern and southern Iraq (which protect the Kurds and Shiite minority populations). Saddam has done nothing, he makes false concessions and then places restriction or the demand for compromise on the things the UN has decreed HE MUST DO. Yet he refuses and people march to support HIM. Whether or not that is the intent, IT IS THE RESULT.
    Fourth, he continues to kill, torture and starve his own people. He is to this day dissolving people alive in acid, burning them alive, killing children in front of their parents and vis versa; as well as other atrocities too sick to write (rape – beheadings – floogings etc.)
    Fifth, those countries that support him, France, Germany, Russia to name a few, will gain monetarily from Saddam remaining in power. The French are doing this for money and oil, the Germans ditto, the Russians mostly for money. It is claimed that Bush is doing this for oil, look at the damned French, they truely are doing this for oil. The French are an enemy of Liberty, in bed with an antisemetic serial murderer.
    Sixth, Saddam has said he will use his ‘unexistent’ weapons. How can someone with such a great deathwish be contained? He will use them on Israel, he will. The world should not let that happen, not again. I don’t want to see genocide again, why do the Europeans and Arabs unite in their hatred of the poor Jewish people? Why? I am a Christian, and can feel for the Jewish Nation, they are our brothers, they are peaceful, they only defend themselves, they have not in thousands of years acted pre-emptively.
    I know what you will say next, well the US is going to act pre-emptively. No, it is not, it is in self-defense, we fought a war with Iraq, they lost and have NEVER followed the ceasefire agreement they made. Now we MUST resume that war to defend our allies and ourself. Why? Saddam, he could make the talk of war go away in milliseconds, but he won’t turn over his W of MD. Why? They are the only things keeping his sorry evil ass alive. They are the club he hangs over the heads of his own people and neighbors, to protect himself.
    Why ANYONE would want to protect him I will never understand, even serupticiously.
    By the way I took you advice and saw Star Wars Episode 2, and it was really good. Thanks! I did notice that tool Jar-Jar was the enabler of the head evil guy to destoy the Emperial Senate. I hate Jar-Jar. Ugh.
    Darth Sidious…..er….Um.I.mean…
    NYC

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