89 thoughts on “regarding the matter of video games v. movies”

1. Heh. I play my RPG games the same way. The only ones I didn’t do that on initially were Final Fantasy X and X-2 and Dragon Quest 8. I ripple-saved those mo-fos (i.e. Saved all the way through the memory card, restarted at the top) Even XII I’m doing one save file (Playing it again. First playthrough missed the Zodiac Spear because I opened a bad chest. Second playthrough I never finished because I got really busy, didn’t want to go back to it.) DQ 8 the multiple saves was mostly so I could go back and replay a section.

2. Dragon Age is a great game, and I think I know what part you are referring to. It’s rough and really, it made me want to play again just to see if I had to make those same choices.
   Great stuff, Bioware knows what they’re doing. I certainly can’t wait to try out Mass Effect 2.

3. I’ve been playing Dragon Age for about 45 hours and am addicted. If only stupid life didn’t get in the way…

4. you missed the dog from fable 2? that dog was the most annoying pet this side of a tribble.

5. That…was…beautiful. No wonder you loved Ron Gilbert’s keynote just as much as I did at PAX 2009. Here’s hoping you can make it to PAX East 2010!

6. I think I know which follower you mean, and … well, you probably don’t want to know the answer. But I’m glad you’re enjoying the game!
   A Biowarian fan.

7. I know EXACTLY what choice you’re talking about and it pained me too. In the end, I couldn’t let that character go and so my game played out that way. But yes, quite a game they have there — going to be starting my third go through soon.

8. It’s funny, but my girlfriend and I have been saying largely the same thing about the increasing trend towards not just good but brilliant storytelling in video games, using aspects of the medium you just can’t do anywhere else.
   What’s particularly funny is that right now the amount of money people spend buying games is equal to, or even larger than, the amount of money people spend going to the movies, yet it’s rare that the “mainstream” media takes notice of events in gaming, or makes game reviews as important as film reviews. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that games like DA:O and ME2 deserve the same kind of critical and widespread attention.
   Edit: And I think I know that bit you’re talking about in DA:O too. My first playthrough, I actually chose for that character to take my place in the…event, and didn’t realise until much later that the consequences of that choice weren’t inevitable.

9. It’s nice that your wife (and dog) lets you play video games all night. I often wish mine would.

10. There’s a few decisions in there that elevate Dragon Age beyond a ‘black and white’ world. It’s nice to see a world with huge chunks of gray here and there.

11. I was the same way, it was a hard choice. But the way I was playing the game, the character didn’t like me that much anyway. So no loss on me, See yah!
    Now I just have to figure out what’s going to happen in the expansion…..since..my character…is..yah..
    Anyway! the point about Movie vs. Games. I don’t see why there needs to be a competition with either of them. They’re simply two different mediums that provide two different things to the viewer/player. I wouldn’t choose a game over a really well done movie any day. And some movies simply could not work as a game either. Sometimes you just have to except the creators vision of the story and go along with it. That’s part of the art of a movie. You have no choice and are forced to accept the emotions that are placed upon you. That’s what art is.

12. Oh, Dragon Age is such a great game. I play exactly how you do, and for my first character I always play as “me.” I just beat the game on Saturday, so I had the same troubles as you apparently did. There were a few choices toward the end there where I reaaalllly had to stop and think about what I wanted to do, and I am still second-guessing one or two of them.

13. I do the same thing, and it can definitely put you in situations where you end up in unexpected places. The first time through Fallout 3, I played what would probably be considered a lawful good character, which was probably a bad choice considering the setting.
    But she did her best to help everyone along the way, until the path she’d taken through the world and the events that transpired because of it (not going to post exactly what, since it could be considered spoilerish) convinced her that the world was broken, and the only way to save it was to end it. She completely snapped, killing everyone and everything she came across, and ended up dropping everything she owned and walking into a radioactive crater to die.
    That’s what I love about RPGs, immersing yourself in a character and being in their world the way they would be, making the choices they would make, and suffering the consequences along with them. And then doing it again as a different person, to find out what they would do, and again, and again. I still miss Teal Sutton, and I wish things hadn’t turned out the way they did, but I can cherish the memories of our journey together.

14. It’s an awesome experience when you get really into a game and pull an all nighter knowing you’ve got work next morning! Haven’t done that since Mass Effect 1.
    Oh and by the by “Yeah, let that roll around in your heads for a second, kids: daddy is hardcore.” LMAO!!! 🙂

15. I just picked up DA and ME2 today. I plan on being NOT productive this week, sorry wife and cats. I love you Will.

16. Speaking of acid pits, can you talk about if there’s the barest hint of a possibility of a plan for another D&D podcast?

17. I’ve recently been having a lot of problems keeping up with my favourite shows cos when I have a choice over TV or games. Games wins 90% of the time.
    Your style of playing Wil is a lot like my own when it comes to these games. Dragon Age is the first time I’ve been able to go back through a game and enjoy just as much the 2nd time as I did the first.

18. Bioware is definitely riding the crest of this. I just played KOTOR last year and started Mass Effect (first one) over xmas and MAN. Never have I played more engrossing games.
    I’ll admit I scum-saved on KOTOR, but M.E. I’m playing straight.
    P.S. my wife and I have an annual LOTR extended edition viewing at the end of every summer (3yrs so far). Once a year is just right with us. Just hearing that music in hobbiton at the beginning sucks me right in.

19. Wait – there are *other* ways to play? I”ve always played with a single save file and a back up for corruption – since we were allowed to save anyway (why yes, I have been playing that long – but I believe you have been as well ;>).

20. I totally agree that games can far surpass the narrative qualities of movies. There is something so powerful about being part of the story rather than simply watching it.
    I’ve been really disappointed with RPGs for consoles, for me role playing was always about playing with a group. Single player RPGs, even ones with NPC parties, always seem to be lacking. Also character creation has been a big part of my enjoyment of gaming, and you usually don’t get that from video games.
    Some games have the character creation that I love, like Oblivion and Fallout 3, but they don’t have the any multiplayer, which is kind of important to me.
    About the only games that seem to contain the aspects that I enjoy are MMORPGs, but I have my problems with them, I can’t justify monthly subscriptions for games that I don’t play regularly.
    I’ve really been considering DAO, but I’m worried that I’ll feel the same about it as I did about Fallout 3, and stop playing it after about 4 hours due to sheer frustration.

21. That’s true on many levels. However, you can’t get away from the fact that films in their more original format are unique. 3D will definitely transfer more and more to games, but films made for narrative reasons rather than for special fx reasons will always be around and desired. I worked on games for a few years and then left the field simply because I can’t sit at a computer that much. I’d rather be on either side of a camera.

22. Love the “battle for the creator” bit (great sound bite, by the way):

    Narrative video games aren’t going to replace television and movies any more than television and movies replaced books, but as technology continues to advance, and games become even more cinematic and interactive, the battle won’t be only for the consumer; it will also be for the creator. People who went to school 20 years ago to learn how to make movies are now going to school to learn how to use the same narrative storytelling techniques to make video games.

    I fought that internal battle 20 years ago, programming Prince of Persia on the Apple II while dreaming of going to film school to learn how to make movies. (I did apply, but film school turned me down.)

23. I’m glad you’re enjoying the game, Wil. As a big fan of yours, that means a lot. Hopefully the ending lives up to the rest of the game!
    Dave Gaider

24. Totally agree here. Dragon Age has sucked me in to a beautiful and painful world that I do not want to leave. The writers did an excellent job with this one.
    Speaking of the writers, were you aware that the lead writer, David Gaider, has also written a novel that centers around Duncan? It’s titled “Dragon Age: The Calling” if you care to pick it up. I would highly recommend it, as it gives the reader some great insights into the world of the Grey Wardens, as well as providing some more depth to the back stories of the Origins characters.
    http://www.amazon.com/Calling-Dragon-Age-David-Gaider/dp/0765324091

25. “I’ve been playing Dragon Age for about 64 hours, and I’m finally starting the climactic battle portion of the story. (Yeah, I take my time and get every last second of RP out of the RPGs when I play them.)”

    Funny you should mention this. Was reading a thread yesterday at a popular gaming site where people were complaining about the length of Dragon Age. One person even said anything longer than 20 hours was beyond their interest. Truly a “You damn kids get off my lawn” moment if ever there was one.” If I Dragon Age had only 20 hours of content in it I would have been pissed. I expect to get months out of this game – playing through a variety of characters (and hopefully some more DLC).
    Also these gems were genuine “laugh out loud” moments:

    Yeah, let that roll around in your heads for a second, kids: daddy is hardcore.

    (The Watch George Lucas Shit On Your Childhood editions of the original Star Wars trilogy DELIBERATELY IGNORED.)

    Great points and as always well written.

26. Wow, Dave Gaider? Really? Awesome!
    Thank you for creating something so wonderful. I can't wait to dig into your other work.

27. Wait, what is this “story” you speak of? You played long and hard for something other than leveling and loot? And not exploiting saved games? What the..
    Just kidding.
    Are games, as an interactive medium, really best suited to the kind of narrative storytelling that film (at its best) and novels excel at? Is it because we just haven’t gotten the caliber of writing in games that those media have gotten for years? Or is it something structural about the medium?
    (An aside: It seems in video game RPGs we put up with a lot more railroading than in pen/paper RPGs. Is it because we can’t throw our beer at the DM in the former case?)
    In short, when we will see something like a Great Film (insert your list here, I’ll throw in “The Big Lebowski” just for dissonance)? Or will the Great Video Game be something else entirely, that uses the strengths of the medium in completely new ways? Time will only tell, eh?
    I’m of the opinion that the game industry as a whole (with notable exceptions) has for too long strained to be more “cinematic” in an empty way, pursuing technology to make things look and sound “real” or more like a movie. And they’ve succeeded in making George Lucas look like he can barely write a character sheet. But come on, he’s hardly the standard for great cinema.
    I look forward to the time where games and movies are compared like books and movies are today. Where instead of games striving to be more “movie-like” we accept that it’s a different medium, capable of doing completely different things than a movie.

28. Now for the all-important question. What did you name your war hound?

29. Argus. He's one hell of a good watch dog.

30. “The Watch George Lucas Shit On Your Childhood editions of the original Star Wars trilogy DELIBERATELY IGNORED”
    I realize that this is not AT ALL what this post is about, but let me say that this is the best description of those editions that I’ve ever seen.

31. Good name. I went with Wotan from Wagner’s ‘Ring’ operas. “Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit.”
    Speaking of good writing in video games, I got the biggest kick out the interactions between the dog and Alistair while in camp.

32. How timely! Just last night I reached a moral crossroads in DA… do I side with my people, or do I do what is truly right (which is how I have played the character). Fortunately for me, I can play Nancy Nice-Rogue and see how the story unfolds for me, while my boyfriend plays Bloody McMagerson and I get to see the other side of the coin.
    Also, my boyfriend’s mage is named “The Dude” and bears as much a resemblance to Sir Jeff Bridges as the character creator will allow. Tis hilarious.

33. I know there’s already been a lot of “I’m totally with you” responses to this, but man, I’m totally with you on this. I finished Dragon Age (for the first time) last night and I’ll admit it, I cried a bit at the end. The decisions you have to make in that game aren’t easy, but it absolutely makes the game that much more worth playing! I also started a new game of Dragon Age, so I can try a different story, make different choices, and see how it comes out again in the end. When you reach the end, if you need a shoulder, I’m there.

34. I also recently finished DA:O, but was sadly disappointed in the ending. _However_ I played on Easy *hides from the boos and looks of disapproval/disappointment* and am thinking there might be more in the harder levels. There are a couple moments you could be talking about, to my knowledge, and neither were very nice for me. Both characters I had come to really like and didn’t want to see go 🙁
    aside: _LOVE_ some of the voice actors in this!! I did a double-take when Morrigan showed up, as well as Zathrian. Howe…well, my jaw dropped and I made a human char just hoping for more dialogue from him :D:D
    Speaking of which….*goes off to play*

35. I love that you are surprised!
    I might have to get around to playing that game now..
    Adric

36. See, I get the “interactive” experience from old-fashioned books. A movie is over, whole story told, in a couple of hours, but with a book, I can read a chapter and go for a walk and imagine what I’d do in the chapter-protagonist’s place. It’s a lot of fun, even using old tech, and I find it more immersive even than games, since there’s NO script until you come back to the book and pick it up again.
    A book is the ONLY way I can escape to a magical world where I can smoke anywhere I want. If I’m careful, I can make a book last a month. Games with clearly delimited chapters allowing you to leave off when the PoV changes are a rare treasure.

37. In the future games will use semantic networks to automatically generate stories. The game will use your actions to build a model of your character and guide the story to generate an emotional response tailor made for you. Human authors won’t be able to compete on that level and will have to fall back to writing in less interactive mediums like books and film.

38. “intentionally allowed myself just 5 short hours of sleep because I hoped against hope that I could somehow find a way get [REDACTED] to come back and rejoin me”
    So you didn’t end up [HORRIBLY INAPPROPRIATE VERB] with [REDACTED] in order to [HORRIBLY INAPPROPRIATE MORAL CHOICE]?

39. Really amazing game Dave. My wife and I both really enjoyed it.

40. [Makes my best Andy Rooney Face]
    [Begin talking in Andy Rooney like voice]
    You know Wil, I have been a Gamer almost all my life. It started with Atari, and just avalanched from there. Eventually, I got my first PC, and, well, I was hooked on PC RPGs and MMOs from then on.
    Now, I have played everything from the classic GOLD BOX DND games, the Baldur’s Gate series, and Neverwinter Nights. Later, EQ and WOW dominated my time. I have enjoyed them all. So it was interesting, Wil, you wrote this article. It made me rethink this topic.It is true that video games have improved and implemented some amazing FMV into the games.
    Lately though, I have had to ask myself, do video games match or come close to the immersion and impact of movies? At first it may seem like a trivial question, but really it’s not.
    Now, I agree that video games have gotten progressively better with implementing cut scenes or FMV into the game play..sometimes very cleanly and near seamlessly.
    But gamers have to ask themselves… as you have or aluded to…would you chose a movie over game in terms of immersion.
    For all their high tech wonder..I just don’t think video games are there yet. Movies rely on human actors to get messages across on many levels. The nuances of the actors and their presentation can do without any fancy shmancy high tech graphics what video games really can’t. The human factor, even if it is on film or video, still shines through.
    Now I am not sayign video games are bad in anyway, I love them. I just don’t think pixels can affect people the way a good old fashioned movie can.
    I have saved the world countless times, slayed a million orcs, saved a hundred princesses, and yet I still haven’t been emotionally moved to shed a tear while playing a video game — whether on Atari or Dragon Age.
    In conclusion, there may come a time when video games can do that, be so immersive that I will be brought to tears…but not this day. Movies, I think, with their human touch will always win out over non-human sources of entertainment..
    But with advances in technology coming down the pipe, holograms, holodecks, or who knows maybe even interactive robots…. after all.. All Good Things come to an End.

41. Ok, that settles it. I’m going to buy Dragon Age and try it for myself. I hear that the Assassin’s Creed series is another great story driven game.
    Thanks for the recommendation on Dragon Age.

42. I always wanted to talk to a famous kind of person. And I prayed last night that I would get a chance to talk to you. Because I always wanted to. I hope you reply soon. My bad, for bothering you in anyway. Just wanted to see what its like talking to my favorite actor. (:

43. I love dogs.

44. I totally agree. The advancement of video games from huge pixels on a screen to extremely cinematic, immersive experiences is one of the first points I make when I propose a paper to study games from a cultural and media studies point of view. Games are advancing in their complexity and they are important parts of many people’s entertainment. While I don’t expect video games to replace television, film, books, or other forms of entertainment, games are only growing in popularity.
    Also, Dragon Age is going to be the second game I buy when I finally upgrade my XBOX to a 360. The first, of course, is Beatles Rock Band.
    Cheers!

45. *Slight spoilers ahead*
    In my game, the events that led from the time you’re talking about made that character break up with me. I was and am so deeply into the role-playing that it legitimately broke my heart. I seriously moped for a couple days, despite my non-nerdy friends laughing at me. Oh, Dragon Age has done a number on me, indeed.

46. The interesting thing is that there have been forays into interactive movies, where the audience gets to decide on plot directions via a remote control voting system. With the way RPG’s are going the narrative storytelling is making those interactive movies pointless. Coupled with the advances in CG technology before we know it RPG’s will look and feel like we’re creating our own live action movies right in our own homes. We won’t need to go out to a theater to be a part of the storytelling.
    Meanwhile, we don’t have to worry about the TV and film industry going the way of the Dodo. Watching films will be the form of relaxing entertainment that it was always meant to be, only on a more profound level for gamers. Movies and TV will be a necessary veg break from our collaborative, creative gaming.

47. My two credits: when they first came out, movies were regarded as something of a fad and a parlour novelty and not a “proper” artform. As video games have developed, so has the quality of the writing and storytelling that goes along with them.(ATTN: Michael Bay and/or Joss Whedon: the world NEEDS Deus Ex: The Movie. Done properly.)
    In short, you can make masterpieces with pixels and code, crayons, oils, celluloid, watercolours, leather and silk, guitars with REALLY BIG SCARY AMPLIFIERS, collage, a few guys and girls who know how to dance, a typewriter… what matters is how much of your imagination and soul you put in.
    Where video games have a slight edge is that YOU and your friends can star in them and have your own little Epic Moments. Aware that some people may have pointed out that there’s some kind of VERY geeky game about to launch on Friday, but I think leading my own Away Team onto the City On The Edge Of Forever set is going to be a gaming memory I’ll treasure for a while…

48. How did you handle Dogmeat in Fallout? Another heart-wrenching moment in gaming.

49. I’ve been writing scripts for videogames for nearly a decade now (I’m currently on the Deus Ex 3 team), and it is without doubt one of the coolest jobs I have ever done.
    There’s no maps for these territories; not since maybe when TV first took off and all those radio and film writers made the leap have we had the chance to get in on the ground floor of a new way of storytelling.
    Games are like movies, only they’re not; games are like books, only they’re not. We’re still figuring out *what* they are. This medium is evolving and changing, and it’s thrilling to be part of that – as a creative and as a gamer.

50. I’m enjoying DA but I felt that after taking a step foward with the dialogue tree of Mass Effect Bioware then took a step back to the boring “pick an option” of DA. i liked choosing a style of response in ME and then seeing exactly what shepherd would do/say.
    I’m in the middle of the ‘treaty’ quests and it’s getting a bit repetitive :
    PC : “hey can you guys help with the Darkspawn?”
    NPC: “We’d love to but we’re in the middle of this internal dispute. Why don’t you sort out our problem then choose who wins the dispute?”.

Comments are closed.