This makes me sick. Just plain sick. According to a report in the New York Times, hundreds, if not thousands of innocent, civilian Afghan citizens have died in US attacks, during the undeclared war on terror.
Now, let me be clear here, because my posts like this usually bring out the name-callers: I am horrified by, and I am still processing the reality of the terrible, terrible attacks on September 11th. I want very badly for the people who did it to be brought to justice, and pay for what they did, and I want to be sure that things like this don’t happen again.
But I don’t think that killing innocent people, identified as “collateral damage”, is right.
Consider this: the people in the WTC and Pentagon, and on those planes were completely innocent, right? Just people, going through their day. Maybe some of them had left a sleeping spouse, at home, or left their kid at school without a goodbye kiss.
The evil sub-humans who murdered thousands of innocent people didn’t have a quarrel with them, personally. Their quarrel is with the leadership and foreign policy of the United States, right? So, from their horribly twisted perspective, the people who died on 9/11: the mothers, sons, infants, fathers, daughters, husbands and wives, were just “collateral damage”, right?
NOTE (4:14 PM): Wrong. They were, as has been pointed out, intentional targets. After many notes and emails, I have really reconsidered my thought here: these people who died on 9/11 were intentional targets, murdered by terrorists, and not collateral damage, as I said. I was way, way, way off, and I’m putting foot into mouth. There is a huge difference between a bomb that goes astray, and the intentional targeting of civilians. I’m really glad that people have pointed out my glaring error, and, rather than pride fully insist that I am correct, it’s much more important to me to admit that I was wrong.
I guess that my point is that I don’t like this concept of “collateral damage”, regardless of whose side you’re on. I also don’t even like the term. It’s too antiseptic, and fails to convey the brutal reality. It should be called what it is: The Killing of Innocent Civilians.
Innocent people do not deserve to die, especially because of a conflict that isn’t between people, but between nations.
If I, or someone I loved had died on that day, I would not want an Afghan child to die in the pursuit of my, or my loved one’s killer.
It also really bothers me that everyone, from the man in the street, to the members of the media, to the leaders in our government, are calling this a war, when congress hasn’t declared war. I realize that this is probably pedantic to most people, but I think that the separation of powers is extremely important, and if the cause is just, the President should ask for, and receive from Congress, a declaration of war. Doesn’t this bother anyone else? I mean, of course it’s a war. But why hasn’t it been formally declared? And, while I’m at it, because I’m pretty sure the flames will begin to surge my way, shouldn’t the my government take a good, hard look at why the rest of the world hates us so much? I mean, let’s get the bad guys, absolutely, but shouldn’t we also take a good, honest, fearless look at our foreign policy, and ask ourselves if maybe we need to make some changes?
Let me clarify just a few other things, too: If you’re a serviceman or woman, I don’t have a problem with you, or the choice you’ve made to defend our country. It seems that every time I question the morality of a war, or the motives of our leadership, I get flooded with emails and comments from insulted members of the armed forces, and I’d like to head that off, if it’s at all possible. The same way that I don’t want to be blamed for a lousy episode of TNG, I don’t blame you for a war that I don’t agree with. I know, a thin comparison, but I think you get my point.
I realize that, in war, civilian deaths are inevitable, but that doesn’t mean that I have to like it, and I fear that there are people who will read this story, and it won’t bother them a bit that a mother lost a son in our pursuit of the terrorists.
Countless Iraqi civilians died during the Operation Desert Storm, simply because they were in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and I heard people proclaiming that they deserved it, because they were Iraqi, and therefore automatically supported Saddam. I think that’s insane.
So this started out as an indignant post about the deaths of civilians in Afghanistan, but it’s turned into some rambling thoughts on the deaths of innocents in any war…I bet I’d get a low grade if I turned this in as a paper, but it’s what’s on my mind today. So there.
I also realize that most Americans are still reeling over the events of 9/11, and I apologize in advance if my thoughts here offend anyone.
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Well Wil, lot less died in this war than most wars.
Look up the history of Dresden Germany.
Wil,
You have suddenly really put things in perspective for me tonight. I was just getting seriously annoyed with the TV for cutting out during the programme I’ve been watching all evening (Pop Idol – it’s a British thing) and so I came online. I’m really glad I did. I completely agree with everything you’ve said and I really appreciate you making me see things as they truly are. Thank you.
Didn’t you hear? American lives are more valuable than the lives of those of other nations. That is why it is not a big deal. Why did I just do that? I HATE when people do that… Anyway, what’s with Osama? If anybody seriously thinks this guy is some master of disguise that can’t be found they are just being naive. GPS can read an automobile’s license plate from space, yet it has been 6 months and still no trace of this guy? Convenient? Is the huge funding for the war too good to stop it anytime soon? Btw I’m Canadian. I don’t know anything.
Right on Wil. Seconds after I heard the news of the attacks on the towers I said, “Oh no, the wrong people are going to die because of this.” I respect all the men women that are doing their job and fighting our country, they are our heroes. But, the leadership that sent them over there to do these things is at the very least misguided. There is nothing heroic about what the administration is doing. Unfortunately, it seems that this course of action is always what happens. I wonder if there is something in the mind of the politician that automatically leads to this. I don’t know. Anyway, good post Wil.
Drew: you’re correct. I didn’t mean to, by omission, minimize the losses in any other conflicts.
My position on civillian deaths remains the same.
oops… my /sarcasm didn’t how up. that’s what I hate.
How long has the U.S. been in conflict with the Taliban? Because the President get’s 90 days to do whatever he wants with our troops before it is suppose to be declared a war.
Yeah, the killing of civilians is bad, but when you are in a war, which this is, innocent people are going to die. The people that we should be blaming are the Taliban. Without their attack we would’ve never gone into Afganistan to fight this war in the first place.
25,000-35,000 killed at Dresden
Wil,this is not a war this a police action against not a country,but a people and a way of life.The civillian’s are also raised to be terrorist’s and would kill you just because of who you are.I understand your position and respect that but be careful of those you doin’t know.
Hey Wil,
It very much bothers me that this action against ‘terrorism’is being called a war yet no war has been declared by congress. It makes me suspicious of the administrations motives.
There is one major difference that you forgot to mention. The planes that hit the WTC were targeted at civilians wheras our bombs were not. Our bombs accidentally killed civilians.
Granted, dead is dead. But, in my mind at least, the intentions of the killer mean a lot.
For example: Someone gets shot in the head while hunting. If the gun was aimed at a deer but the aim was bad, it’s a tragedy. If the gun was aimed at another human and the aim was good, that’s cold blooded murder.
Unfortunately more civilains die in a war than soldiers. Soldiers made the choice to put their lives on the line. Amazing that it isn’t
“important” anymore to inform people of what’s
really going on.
The US hasn’t declared war because they can only declare war against another nation and in this case, there isn’t a nation to blame (directly, anyway).
While I do feel for the innocents dying, and I’m sure that it is only going to cause more children to grow up hating the US, there isn’t a way around it. The military is doing everything possible to minimize the civilian causalties while still effectively fighting the war. It sucks, but all war does.
Yup.
War sucks.
Even things remarkably similar to war suck.
Fighting sucks.
Death sucks.
Anger sucks.
Hate sucks.
So many things suck. Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to tell who was evil before they kill them? Wouldn’t it be nice if they bad guys had some sort of insignia? Wouldn’t it be nice if we knew who the frick the bad guys were? Aw, hell wouldn’t it be nice if there were no bad guys?
Damn, back to the real world. I’m going to make ice cream. I’d like to think that the world would be a nicer place if everyone could make ice cream today (or just go buy some).
Hey, if some psycho militiant org took over our country, would you be willing to give your life so that others could be free?
I’d like to think that I would.
Gotta go buy cream, and pizza. And vaccuum.
Vaccuuming sucks, but the alterntive sucks more.
O
Wil, have you ever seen the movie “Swordfish”? Two very good points were brought up:
1. Would you kill one innocent child to cure, say, cancer? How about 10 children? A 100? A 1000? You see where this is going.
2. The “west” must do whatever is necessary to show the world that terrorism will not be tolerated. If “they” kill 5,000 Americans, then America should kill 50,000 of them. They blow up a building, America blows up 10. The message must be sent loud and clear that these cowardly actions will not be stood for. The message must also be sent that countries loyal to terrorists, providing funding or safe havens for terrorists, must re-evaluate their position or face negative consequences.
Or, we can all hold hands, pray, and sing cumbayah for world peace.
I just hope your wife and kids aren’t in the next tall building.
Better yet, get off your ass, drop out of the next trek film, grab the wife and kids, and hop on a plan to Afganistan. Sell your house, ebay all your trek shit, and donate your cash to rebuilding those poor, “abused-by-America” folks over there.
Hey buddy, actions speak louder than words.
Violence begets violence. I quote one who phrased it much better than me:
“Perhaps this final act was meant to clench a lifetime’s argument that nothing comes from violence, and nothing ever could.
For all those born beneath an angry star
Lest we forget how fragile we are…”
What a total bunch of bullshit. I am sick of you radical left winged assholes bitch about innocent civilians dying. Thousands died September 11th and you bitch and moan about shit that dosn’t even compare to the attrocities that happened on Sept 11th, and you offer no fucking solution. What were we supposed to do after Sept 11th, jam our thumbs up our asses and watch a Star Trek TNG marthon on the Sci Fi Channel while Bin Laden plots to blow our asses up again? Its thinking like yours that let Hitler take over half of Europe in World War 2. If we didn’t do anything then, you’d be speaking German right now.
Have you watched the news lately and seen Afghans thanking the US, playing music, buying t.v.s, singing dancing and all that shit? Why don’t you bitch about these regimes like the Taliban, like Iraq, Iran, Somalia, and Colombia? You can’t bitch about your government in those countries Mr Wheaton. Granted nobody should die from any war or terrorism, but thats just not realistic. The US military does do its best to MINIMIZE civilian casualties. They could have bombed the whole place into the stone age like the Soviets in the 80’s, but they didn’t. The US is not as bad as you depict them.
There are assholes everywhere in the world, and some only understand one language, violence. You can’t reason with whackjobs that are willing to kill themselves to kill innocents. You bitch, but offer no solution. Life sucks, shit happens, people are assholes, DEAL WITH IT.
Wil I agree with you, that is what bothers me too.
I think that, despite those who have died so far, the out come will be worth it. These people will no longer be under the rule of the Taliban
I just met somebody who was bombed by Americans in the nineties (fast war, peace-keeping deal, you might have forgotten. Yugoslavia? It’s in Europe). This is quite a long story but it’s illuminating.
She’s a Serbian filmmaker I met at a festival in Sweden last month. Very clever woman; cosmopolitan; intellectual. Even during the war American entertainment was available in former Yugoslavia and she told us a story of how she had taken her daughter to see “George of the Jungle”, how she had to explain to the kid that even though the American government is bombing them, the American people is not necessarily the enemy. Which the kid accepted. But even though this woman was trying to be rational about it, she noted how the few months of bombing made her bitter and filled her with a kind of rage she didn’t believe herself capable of. She described how she had the impulse to scream at American tourists on the streets of Budapest (which is in another country, she went there right after the war, look at a map).
In all fairness, I think the American bombings in Afghanistan have been among the “best” yet. The number of civilians killed is relatvely small; the precision of the bombings occasionally miraculous (based on very random eye-witness accounts in European media). The problem is, that killing a few hundred or a few thousand civilians is more than enough to create a new cycle of resentment.
The Serbian lady got over it, because she works in an industry where she meets representatives of other nations all the time – including Americans. Makes it more real.
Tactical studies of WWII seem to pretty much prove that there is absolutely no gain in bombing cities. Precision attacs on infrastructure is one thing, but when that turns into trying to crush the spirit of the civilian population it’s another kind of sport. I believe the technical term is “pissing contest”.
Now everybody knows the US has the biggest bomb, and nobody wants nobody to ever use it again. This alone should be a reason to stay the hell away from pissing contests. (And, incidentally, to try and megotiate peace between India and Pakistan, but never mind that).
And the other thing is, the terrorists dropped two bombs on the US. That was a terrible, terrible, tragedy. Multiply the rage you feel and the patriotic commitment that spawned by a thousand, and you’ll start to get a picture of why so many nations have a grievance with the US to start with.
Even though the targets America has bombed might have been enemies, or rogue nations, at the time, the civilian population has a nasty habit of not feeling that way at all. It only takes the one guy to be pushed over some kind of edge to have yet another dangerous terrorist on your hands.
This was incrdibly depressing to think about. Not much anyone can do about it either. Except for you Americans, who get to vote.
Oh yeah I forgot, your congress – your elected representatives – didn’t get to vote on the whole war thing. My bad. Yea democracy.
wil i’m dissapointed with your potty mouth 🙁
Cody,
It weren’t the Taliban that attacked the US. Evidence still points to Al Quaeda, and Bin Laden who is/was hiding in Afghanistan, which was under the Taliban rule. The Taliban themself didn’t attack the US.
Okay, now that’s out of the way, I too oppose bombing any country, although my reasons are (besides ethical) more personal.
I am from Yugoslavia, which got bombed in ’99. My grandmother’s house partially collapsed because of the heavy raids – she was lucky that she heard the sirens go off and went to sleep outside, out of fear that the house might collapse. Civilians guarded the bridges (my grandmother and aunt were one of those guards) and still bridges were bombed. God knows how many people died like that.
What strikes me as odd is how quickly anything can become a military target. Army bases being attacked? I can understand that. Destroying the infrastructure still makes sense. Not a lot, but still.
But bombing children’s hospitals, tv stations, trains and bridges with civilian guards, and Chinese embassies (even though that was a ‘mistake’), what the hell were they thinking?
I was glad that Al Jazeera had been in Afghanistan from the beginning so the world could see what happened there, not some biased figures and graphs from CNN (that are retracted 2 years later). I hope people will think twice before ever bombing another country.
Sub,
Actions do speak louder than words, but they don’t necessarily get the right message across.
Think about this one, “An eye for an eye, leaves the whole world blind.”
Brian Gerrard,
The media only shows you what they want you to see. I’m sure that there must be plenty of Afghans left that either support Al Quaeda or the Taliban.
Media=propaganda. I’ve seen it happen with the civil war in Yugoslavia, where they failed to mention that Muslims and Croatians also participated in mass murder (I’ve lost half of my family that lived in Mrkonjic Grad in Bosnia)
And don’t start about whose lives were more important and where died more or less, because as I recall, even to this day CHILDREN are dying in Iraq, because of the bombings there (the depleted uranium causes birth defects). I vaguely remember that the number of dead CHILDREN ran in the millions. Still dead is dead is dead.
It’s all terrible, no matter where and how many people died.
I agree that innocent civilians being killed as a result of war that has nothing to do with them is terrible. Of course it is.
I’m not sure what the alternatives are.
There is a difference between those killed on Sept. 11 and the innocent Afghans who have been accidentally killed. Of course, it’s no difference to those who have died and to their loved ones, but there is a difference. Those killed on Sept. 11 didn’t get killed accidentally by someone targeting U.S. military installations. Those killed *were* the targets.
In any case, war is terrible for a thousand reasons, but that innocents are killed as a by-product is one of the biggest. Again, I just don’t know what the alternatives are. There are unfortunately, some instances where war is just about the only option. (Although I certainly agree that there are instances when the war option is used a little too hastily, when other options are available, as well.)
I have to agree with some of the others who posted before. There is a big difference between targeting civilians and accidentally killing them. We support the people of Afganistan, we want them on our side, and when we make a mistake, the government usually steps up and takes the blame. I remember several times when the military would admit that they made an error while planning military targets and civilians were killed. It’s not like we’re doing it on purpose or trying to cover it up.
We have every right to be in Afganistan. Mistakes will be made and the best we can do is apologize, make reparations, assist the populace, and try to help their new government as much as possible. It is unfortunate that our world favors survival of the fittest over turning the other cheek, but that is how it is. If you want to survive, you have to defend yourself.
Wil, I’m behind you 100%
two wrongs don’t make it a right!!
I mean for me I’m all for peace. I mean if we want to show Bin Laden something, I want him to see kids from all races, creeds and nationalities playing with each other (at the age of 5)
by that age kids don’t care about the color of their skin…they are SO innocent!
We need to reunite instead of fight!
Hey great slogan!!!
Wil I don’t blame ya for being SO upset!!!!
“Those killed on Sept. 11 didn’t get killed accidentally by someone targeting U.S. military installations. Those killed *were* the targets.”
This is an excellent point, which has been made many times here, and elsewhere, and somehow, I missed it. I’m really glad that you pointed this out, because it *really* puts things into perspective.
FWIW, I’m really not trying to start a fight with anyone here, regardless of whether you agree with me or not. I was just thinking about this, and I write about what’s on my mind. Let’s lay off the name-calling, okay?
And the “if you don’t like it move to [country currently being bombed]” is so laughable, it doesn’t even warrant rebuttal.
Daniel Kratz: Very well said. Comments like yours are one of the reasons I write about this stuff in the first place.
Sincerely, thank you to those of you who have brought up this very important point.
I’m tempted to change the post, to reflect this revelation, but I’ll leave it as is, and just say, here, for the record, that I stand behind my point, but the way that I made it is way, way off.
Innocent people do not deserve to die because of a conflict between nations, but until we can settle things like this with a WWF-style cage match between the Al-Qaeda and…I dunno…some members of Congress maybe…we’ll still be sending people who had nothing to do with the original argument over to kill and be killed. Our people get killed, their people get killed and at the end of the day there are more dead people, more angry people, and more people who feel that [whoever died] got exactly what they deserved.
As far as “collateral damage” not bothering people, I think people in general are bothered just as much about the civilians being killed as they are about “troops” being killed: i.e. “Gee, what a shame…oooh, Millionaire’s on!” The plain fact is, most people just don’t really care about much of anything as long as their individual lives don’t change. The plain fact is, everyone dies.
Gah. I’m awfully cheerful today.
Americans are systematically taught to hate all arabic people by the awful corporate media. Whenever images of Arabs (or Persians) are shown on the awful american media, they are shown on a horse shooting guns into the air..
I ask you this:
Don’t these people ever do normal things like go to work and celebrate holidays? OF COURSE THEY DO, but typical americans (who are either unwilling or unable to question the images they are shown every day) are not allowed to see this.
This “war” on terrorism is just another extension of US foreign policy in a region (coincidentally I’m sure) that happens to have a lot of energy reserves. Bush talked about bombing Afghanistan BEFORE 9/11, that just gave him a “moral imperative” to do so. Let’s see if we help them set up the pipeline Bush was hoping for before 9/11.
Bush keeps talking about how there is no set date when this war will end. I’m SURE the lesson learned by Bush Jr. from his father was that people forget about “glorious military victories” when the economy is in the toilet. And I’m sure Bush will drag out this war against middle eastern culture until RIGHT BEFORE the next presidential election cycle. Bush might be stupid, but even he (or someone truly smart like Colon Powell) is smart enough to give him that advice.
It’s also interesting to see our administrations backpedal during these times. They spend years turning the arabs into the devil, and then when arab-american citizens suffer abuses in these times they like to pretend they never planted the original seed of hate.
It will be interesting to see how bad our economy gets before people start telling Bush to shut up already about this war. Interesting indeed.
Rich…
Hi Wil!
Well I just want to say that I agree with you. It has not necesary to kill all of those people if they had nothing to do. But as you can see these events, as tragic as they have been, have also helped all of those poor afgan women. They have found freedom. Now the most simple things we do on a regular day are the most exciting and trilling events afang women are living. Maybe this war has killed may inocent, but it has also saved may lives. I once read that the average life spand of a afgan women is 37 years!! that is very frigthning.
Another thing I will like to mention is that these event have not only afected the US but it’s neighboring countries as well. I live in a border city with the US, and I have to cross to the US every day just to go to school!!. After the event of sep 11, inspection to cross the international bridge has been very intensive. In the past I used to make 40 min to cross now I have to wait more than 1:30. The consecuense of having so many cars on the crossing bridge for a great period of time has caused the death of 2 children. They died because the levels of carbon monoxide gas were to great!!. When I hear this I was devastaed!!
Now I just pray things like these don’t happen again!!
Okay, after much consideration, I’m amending the front page.
Dang it, Wil, I’m going to start caching your pages somewhere so that people can see what it *used* to say before you changed entries. C’mon, add an addendum entry! 🙂
Hey all, just a thought…
Everybody familiar with the whole controversy now about the statue being erected to commemorate the three NYPD officers who raised a flag at Ground Zero? (Three white officers being turned into a white officer, an African-American officer, and a Latino officer). Ok, call this a debatable attempt to inculcate further interracial solidarity in the U.S. So, aside from the fact that it’s being debated on grounds of historical accuracy, has anyone else noticed that racial issues (as far as they affect African-Americans and Latinos) have been put on a “back-burner” so to speak, at least in terms of the media and current politics?
Everybody’s got the new enemy now, and the problem is making sure we don’t associate those in our homeland who may look to us like him with him.
The point I’m trying to make (badly, I might add) is that it is human nature to need someone (or several someones) by which to define one’s own group/society. Look at any history book or evolutionary biology book to see that. Everyone in the U.S. now has a common enemy, so we are no longer dividing ourselves out of lack thereof. This might seem obvious to most of you, but what I’m getting at is that the “innocents” who are dying in Afghanistan are no more or less “innocent” than anybody else. Lots of countries have very legitimate reasons for considering the U.S. as the enemy by which they define themselves as a group, and had little problem doing so before Sept. 11. And just because the Taliban didn’t directly set into motion the attacks, didn’t mean that they didn’t help to cause them. And btw, just because we’ve driven the Taliban out doesn’t mean that the Afghans will be free. After all, look at what happened after we helped drive the Russians out.
This is just a drawn out way of me saying that most adults aren’t innocent. They may be innocent of actions, but not of beliefs. And maybe beliefs shouldn’t get you killed, but then neither should complacency, and look where that’s gotten us.
It seems to me that war wasn’t formally declared by Congress because then — perish the thought!! — the pros and cons of doing so would actually have to be discussed in a public forum! (by people elected on a much more generous margin than our President, too… but I’m getting off topic here).
I think there are 2 reasons (aside from accessible, public debate) behind not declaring war:
First, it seems that if we did so, then actual conventions of war would have to be followed (e.g. Geneva etc.) This, in particular, is a sticking point for the many who are calling the Guantanamo detention camp “inhumane.” While I disagree with the assertion that there are human rights violations going on there, how anybody can call the detainees there anything other than Prisoners of War boggles my mind.
Second, if you follow the Dubya rhetoric, war was “declared on us” so retaliating is par for the course. Ergo, we don’t “need” to make a formal war declaration.
The question you pose, Wil, is logical and one that I had hoped would be discussed more extensively in the media here. Unfortunately it seems to have been overlooked. And I belive it is perfectly defensible to question the actions of our (so-called) leaders while at the same time being patriotic – supportive of our armed forces – and sympathetic toward the victims of 9.11.
I dare anyone who is not bothered by “collateral damage” in Afghanistan to read Howard Zinn’s article, “The Others,” in the Nation:
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020211&s=zinn
Wil, I like your wording, and the examples you used. It’s exactly the way I’m thinking about this ‘collateral damage’ issue.
Chris, you mean like what happened the Christians in the Roman Empire and the Jews in the Middle-Ages? Very interesting idea indeed.
Although I don’t get that “people are less innocent” part, do you mean that members of one group tend to think that people of another group are “lesser” and therefore “less innocent”?
Like the Romans who thought that the Christians were cannibals and used that as a justication for prosecuting them?
Also voting for addendum entry. That way the rest of us who took exception to what you wrote won’t look like we’re making stuff up and putting words in your mouth :):)
Then again, we can just have free rein to misquote you horribly, then just say that you changed what you originally said 😉
That’ll teach me for not using the preview function.
For some reason, I feel a need to point out that the US is billed as “government of the people, by the people, and for the people.” Whether you believe that this is the case with the US today, a lot of The People really, really wanted BLOOD after 9/11. I mean a LOT of really Vocal People. Even some people who later, after calming down a bit, thought, “Hrm, maybe I ought to slow down a bit and not just start yelling Nuke the Mideast after all,” people who ordinarily would consider themselves quite humanitarian, turned a bit bloodthirsty after 9/11.
Lots of very vocal people still want blood, and it’s hard to blame them, especially those who’ve lost families. It is a bit of a vicious circle, though, in a live by the sword, die by the sword, reap what you sow sort of sense, though.
Why, oh, why can’t I stop posting to this discussion??? 🙂
P.S. And if we can’t cache the pre-change page, can I post the “diff” in the comments? 🙂
It’s 1:34 AM here.. Damn you Wil, for starting interesting discussions and depriving me of my precious sleep 🙂
Sadly, It is human nature to create such horrors.
I wish that the Good could prevail every time – but that’s not reality. My greatest fear is this – That such conflicts will result in a nuclear war – thus ending all life on this earth.
Violence begats violence. But that’s an easy thing to say sitting here in my cozy office.
We have no control over others, only ourselves and our children, and that is for what, 30 seconds at a time? 🙂 We MUST teach our children to be kind to everyone regardless of their faith, colour, nationality etc.
This whole thing is bigger than you and I and we all need to take care of each other and be kind.
-nicole
Zorya:
Re: “more or less innocent”
I guess what I just meant by that was that “innocent” is such a strong word to bandy about without clarification. By the time a person becomes an adult — especially in a very religious society — a person has become so much a product of his or her own environment and culture (I’m dancing now around the point of cultural relativism, which is more complicated than I’m willing to grapple with right now) that using a term like”innocent” amid a conversation of politico/religio/cultural enemies and actions resulting from that animosity is IMHO too simplistic. Maybe I’m being pedantic, but NONE of Us or of Them (ooh, the Floydian undertones) can POSSIBLY be termed innocent in this cultural clash. I mean, come on. Babies are innocent. Most lower forms of life are innocent. Neither we nor they are innocent, even if through a process of subtle or not-so-subtle brainwashing.
Hi Wil,
It’s so hard to know where to stand on this issue. On the one hand, I agree that killing innocent civilians is wrong. But as so many people have pointed out, our civilians *were* the targets, while theirs just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don’t believe in an eye for an eye, but something has to be done so that they cannot have another chance for a massive strike such as sept 11th. I find it hard to believe that our military is having such a difficult time locating Bin Laden. I sincerely hope that Bush doesn’t drag this out, just to keep his rating high. And, for the record, it is possible to support the military and Bush’s actions against Afghanistan, without actually thinking he’s a good president. I would give my support to whomever had won the election through this, because this is a time when we need unity, but I think that Bush has ruined the economy, and will do his best to ruin the environment,, as long as Big Business benefits. Let’s face it, he is their president, not ours. Sorry, I know that was a little off topic, but my rantings tend to get the best of me!! 😉
Actually, Nicole, what I think we need is to be found by a race of aliens so we can just transfer all our hate and mistrust onto them. Only then can there be world peace. That, or we just genetically engineer that need for the outsider out of our basic chemistry. Thanks Wil for putting me into Doom&Gloom mode. 😉
Wil,
Firstly, thankyou for being brave enough to post your feelings on your site. The government, media, and propoganda could and probably will slate you for it.
I am English, and since 9/11 our ‘government’ has declared our country to be US best friend in this issue. The media has identified what happened in fine detail, they have identified who did it, in fact the full when,where,who,how, but interestingly not WHY ?
Having travelled extensively in the middle/far east, I’m afraid I have some bad news for some of the advocates of truth, justice and the American way. The US is not just disliked in these countries, they are absolutely hated. Why ? Well, try Korea – Vietnam – Iraq – Iran – Palestine – Somalia – El Salvador – Nicaragua – need I go on !
The ‘third world’ views the US as bully boys who wander around the world imposing themselves upon any country they decide they have an issue with, strip that country of it’s wealth and live the life of luxury in the US. Take from the poor and give to the rich. Osama Bin Laden is not the root of 9/11, he is just a symptom and focus of what a lot of the world think.
Was Bin Laden a terrorist when he was blowing up Russian tanks in the 1980’s. No – he was a freedom fighter then. Believe this – in the muslim world Mr Bin Laden is a hero ! That is not a joke – children in muslim countries have posters of this man on their bedroom wall.
The answer the American government has produced for 9/11 has absolutely not helped the situation either. What happened on that day was dispicable in the extreme, and my thoughts and sympathies are entirely with the family and friends of the victims of that attack. The answer however is not to go and blow the fuck out of a weak defenceless country. Mr Bin Laden is a billionaire. Do you really think a man with his resources is going to stay in Afghanistan.
This is a terrifying demonstration by the US that if someone hurts them, the consequences will be devastating. While the people of the US may sit at home thinking they won’t try that again, the truth is that the actions of the US have made these countries/organisations even more determined to exact revenge on the US. Violence begets violence.
There are two scenes I have seen on the TV that just about sum up the current situation.
The first is of an Iraqi mother who had a newspaper which we were told was reporting the recent US increase in military spending of nearly $50 billion. The mother was using the newspaper to wrap her baby in to keep it warm.
The second is the sight of the Pakistan president welcoming the US military advisors to his country while outside the civilians are rioting and demonstrating against the US attack on Afghanistan. Why wasn’t that countries leaders heeding the obvious message his populous was portraying. Fear ?
Here in Europe more and more people are questioning the actions and motives of the US government. This is the nightmare apocalypse we all feared in the 70’s , 80’s. The peoples of the third world are hungry, humiliated, and angry. They have nothing to lose. Yes some of those countries do have weapons of Mass Destruction, and why the hell shouldn’t they, lets not forget that there is only one country in the world that has used atomic weapons in anger, perhaps that country should be the state banned from having these terrible weapons.
This is a war no side can win. Unless the US proposes to annihilate all the muslim countries in the world. So, what is the answer?
How about instead of increasing the Military budget by $50 billion, spending that money on paying off some of the third world debt. How about the US ceasing to provide enormous military backup to rebel groups they want to install as ‘puppet governments’ in foreign countries ?
How about stopping multinational organisations from exploiting the workers in foreign countries ?
How about the US using its enormous wealth and power in a benevolent fashion helping to solve some of the problems in developing countries, instead of building up a military arsenal to threaten the world with.
Perhaps then the rest of the world might see America with smiling eyes. But then perhaps that isn’t on the Whitehouse agenda.
Be afraid, a storm is coming, and those who live by the sword …….
Chris: Yep. Gotta have someone to hate, after all. I think it’s human nature. One of my favorite quotes on that topic is actually from Disney’s Beauty and the Beast:
“We must kill what we don’t understand because it scares us.”
Big ugly green aliens with slime would be my choice. 🙂
Ladies, Gentlemen, Those who aren’t sure….
I’ve been reading the above notes, and although I agree that it’s an important distinction that the terrorists were targetting the people in the World Trade Center, and the US military is not specifically targetting Afghan civilians, I don’t know that the distinction does much to absolve the guilt of killing hundreds or thousands of civilians for the purpose of trying to kill a group of terrorists.
For those of you who were reading Mr. Wheaton’s (SIR!) page just after the destruction of the World Trade Center, you’re already quite familiar with my views on the whole “war against terrorism.” For the newer monkeys, it’s unfortunate that the old comments sections were lost in the WW.N “dark ages,” because a lot of people made a lot of valid points. Although the vast majority of people in the country seemed to support the war unconditionally at that point in time, the people here seemed to realize what would happen when trying to use bombs to target single individuals in a populated area.
Even now, a lot of things said here date back to that discussion. My “sheep” and “cattle” comments, the occasional mention of supporting the military but thinking the government is misguided, the discussion on whether or not it’s right to support the government now, and the short tangent re: patriotism, for example.
If it’s at all possible, Mr. Wheaton (SIR!), could You add links to a couple of those discussions for a few days, if the comments are recoverable? The general populace might find them interesting/enlightening not only from the standpoint of the present discussion, but also as an example of how well-behaved (almost) everyone was, despite how emotion-charged the discussion was at the time….
JSc
Wil,
I very much agree with your comments and always enjoy reading them (even when I don’t agree – which is rare). I do think though that someone should point out something that seems to be being overlooked in all this. And that is:
We’re the fucking idiots who put the Taliban in power in the first place!