288 thoughts on “Killing in the name of…”

1. http://www.wilwheaton.net/greymatter/archives/greymatter.php is the index
   http://www.wilwheaton.net/greymatter/archives/00000041.php is the first post that I made about it, entitled “The World Has Turned”
   Now, you can read them, but if you try to add comments, the window will spin and die, so I wouldn’t suggest trying to make any comments there. You *could* make some here, with a link to the old discussion, if you really wanted to.
   And I think it bears repeating once again, because I don’t want there to be any misunderstanding: I grieve deeply for the victims of 9/11, and their surviving families, and my thoughts and questions about the action currently being taken by the US government is not meant, in any way, to minimize or marginalize, or dishonor their memory, or the memories of the valiant firemen and others who lost their lives trying to save them.

2. of course the victims were targets themselves. anytime someone is killed intentionally they are a target. they were targets, capitalism was a target, we were targets, western ideals were targets. everything, hence the term “terrorists.”
   and other countries will always hate us. always! that’s just how it is. i don’t think we should conform to please every country that hates us. especially ones that supports actions against us like 9-11. and don’t tell me that any gov’t in the mid-east was “sorry” for the victims. i don’t care how much money they donated to “save face”, it was their back-handed sympathy that stood out to me.

3. I think there’s something else that needs to be considered here. Yes, we bombed the hell out of Afghanistan, and killed civilians in the process. What would have happened if we didn’t? I believe that over the course of, say, a year since the US bombing started, FEWER civilians will had died in Afghanistan than if we didn’t do it. I can’t back this up, and there’s really no way to know for sure, but now the government there isn’t (as) oppressive, (much more) humanitarian aid can get into the country, and I believe over all the bombing saved civilian lives. I’m not saying this is justification for doing it, just an interesting point to consider.

4. Quote from Brian Gerard:
   What a total bunch of bullshit. I am sick of you radical left winged assholes bitch about innocent civilians dying. Thousands died September 11th and you bitch and moan about shit that dosn’t even compare to the attrocities that happened on Sept 11th, and you offer no fucking solution. What were we supposed to do after Sept 11th, jam our thumbs up our asses and watch a Star Trek TNG marthon on the Sci Fi Channel while Bin Laden plots to blow our asses up again? Its thinking like yours that let Hitler take over half of Europe in World War 2. If we didn’t do anything then, you’d be speaking German right now.
   ***
   Hmmm, and I suppose that all the German people who blindly supported Hitler without questioning him had nothing to do with his success. Question away, Wil – it’s people that freak out the second anyone dares question the government that scare the sh*t out of me…like we’re all supposed to sit there quietly and let GWB and company use this “war” to justify attacking any country we want (i.e., the oh-so-well thought out “axis of evil”). Sounds a hell of a lot closer to Nazi Germany to me…but what do I know, since I refuse to believe that American casualities are supposed to be more horrifying simply because they’re American. We certainly didn’t care about anyone else’s terrorist-related “atrocities” until it happened to us.
   Flame away, people – I had my daily dose of asbestos with my cereal.

5. Chris, very interesting point.
   If I understand you correctly, you were talking about (I’m generalizing a bit, but I don’t know the exact name for it) ‘cultural backgrounds’ (education, culture, religion & the role religion plays in one’s life, how one’s raised etc?) -> and the effect it has on the way one thinks about all this. And since no one, except for very young children/babies, isn’t affected by this, no one’s innocent?
   That’s very interesting indeed. But a bit too hard for me to discuss now, since my brain is gone at the moment – I’m practically sleeping at this point. You should make a topic at the soapbox, maybe we could discuss about it when I’m awake 🙂
   What Mark says is true, about how the world sees the USA as a big bully. I’m not saying that it’s *true*, but a lot of countries look at it like that.

6. Attacking Afghanistan was the only way to take away Al-Queada’s ability to attack America. At least temporarily.
   It is the president’s job to prevent attacks on American people. If bombing Afghanistan to disrupt the terrorist’s plans to continue to attack our country killed a few innocents, well that can’t be helped.
   What happened on 9/11 was only a taster. Did you not see their training camps? They have thousands of terrorists in training to launch similar and much worse attacks. Maps of U.S. nuclear power plants and water reservoirs were found in Afghanistan by U.S. soldiers. That gives us an indication of what kind of condition the U.S. would be in now if Bush had not sent in the military.
   The terrorists could and would and maybe someday will crash a plane into a nuclear power plant. Millions would die.
   Wil, ask yourself how many Nuclear power stations are in California.
   Ask yourself how safe your dronking water will be tomorrow. There are countless ways the terrorists can attack us.
   Bush has to do everything in his power to stop that. He was elected to protect the American people and even though all lives are equal, his priorties have to lie with the protection of us.
   Don’t underestimate the dangers we are in.
   I’m glad he doesn’t.
   No-one (except Al-Queda) likes to see innocent people killed anywhere but given the choice, I’d rather not see terrorists having a field day crashing our planes into New York, Washington, Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston, my house, your house, childrens’ schools, packed sports stadium, power stations etc….

7. Hm….
   Having reread Mr. Wheaton’s (SIR!) initial post (on the main page), I have to bring up one point that even He seems to be forgetting at the moment.
   The “war on terrorism” is supposedly a war on **TERRORISTS**, not a war between nations. As such, the idea of national borders ceases to have any meaning, and it is misguided to think in terms of a “war between nations” when considering a war against terrorism. The traditional ideas regarding war become irrelevant and, in fact, dangerous to the US just as much as to other nations. The terrorists, on the other hand, profit immeasurably if the US and allies continue to use traditional tactics against the terrorists.
   Consider…. Terrorist group “A” are hiding within some city. For convenience, we’ll say it’s Kandahar. The US government says, “hey! We can kill them all by dropping lots and lots of bombs!” So they do that, and kill (for convenience) 10% of the terrorists in their first assault. At the same time, a huge number of civilians have their homes destroyed, and family members maimed, crippled, or killed in the bombing because the terrorists were smart enough to hide within a city.
   So what happens. Will these civilians who just got crapped on by america be happy, and say “Well, I lost Mom and Dad and little Timmy can’t walk anymore, but at least they killed some terrorists!” or will the civilians say “What the hell are the americans thinking? I’m no terrorist! Why are they bombing my city?”
   Me, I’d lean toward the second as far more likely than the first. And what will the average civilian do? Probably cry over their losses, complain about america, and go on with life. Then again, there is a small percentage who will be so enraged at the attack that they will join the terrorists against america.
   End result? Maybe a few less terrorists. A lot of pissed off civilians. Destroyed homes. Far more dead civilians than terrorists because the terrorists are such a tiny minority no matter where they go.

8. I often wonder why it’s rarely mentioned that what the US is doing right now falls under the UN’s definition of ‘terrorism’…

9. For the innocent people who have died, I am sad for them. No matter that their nationality is.
   Yes, many Afghans who have died, and they were not killed on purpose. But they were killed because our military is careless. We don’t consider them to be human, but as second class citizens. How do I know this? The media reports protray the news of innocent casulties abroad so cold, so calm. You would almost think they were talking about toasters. Our society shrugs it off. Underneath all the political correctness, we consider Afghans citizens to have a “secondary responsability” because we were attacked by “their people”. We forget they were victims, victims no one cared to know about before 9/11. You never hear any talk of how to prevent innocent casulties from happening in the future, never any talk about learning from our mistakes. It’s an outrage to me.
   Did not mistake my sympathy to be apathy for Americans. My mother works in the Pentagon. If the pilot of that plane decided to hit the side to the right, she would have been a dead woman.
   I care for all people. I do not fall for the extreme nationalism bullshit that makes Americans better than others. One world, one human race.

10. “I care for all people. I do not fall for the extreme nationalism bullshit that makes Americans better than others. One world, one human race.”
    If only more people thought like this…

11. hi wil,
    i love that you speak your mind so fearlessly. i am so sick of watching celebrities having to make public apologies just for questioning u.s. foreign policy. probably because their publicist told them they had to appease the american need for revenge. the american victims of 9/11 got way more financial aid than the afghani victims. the difference between financial aid received by american and afghani victims is astrofuckingnomical.
    i’m not a total pacifist or anything either, i mean, i’m a kick-boxer and wing chun fighter, so i’m no stranger to that lust for revenge, but for the love of god man, must we all become bloody, murdering, savages?
    i wonder if this will be enough for people to finally turn to more feminist/socialist politics.
    how many more people have to die?
    a concerned canadian
    peace out
    j-la

12. your right wil they shouldn’t be killing those innocent people!! hopfuly this all will end soon……

13. “The media reports protray the news of innocent casulties abroad so cold, so calm. You would almost think they were talking about toasters. Our society shrugs it off. ”
    _This is not a flame._ I just feel the need to remind us of the Iraqi populace video’d revelling in the streets at the news of the Towers’ crash. EVEN IF they didn’t know the extent of the catastrophe, they were cheering at the loss of American lives.
    BOTTOM LINE: People are not as concerned about deaths occurring in an enemy country – regardless of whether they are “innocent” – as they are about deaths of people who are considered friendly. It’s basic Tit for Tat.

14. “We forget they were victims, victims no one cared to know about before 9/11.”
    Too true. It infuriates me to see Bush and co. acting like the great liberators, especially when they take credit for helping the women of Afghanistan. Before 9/11, they could not care less about what the Taliban were doing to women. Now they’re patting themselves on the back as if they acted not only out of revenge but out of a deep-seated desire to unseat an immoral regime. So many people were concerned about the Taliban before 9/11, but no one in the government (this Administration or the last, to be fair) deemed it important enough then to pay attention. If not for 9/11, the Taliban would still be in power and we’d still be making back-door deals with them. Such hypocrisy.

15. Chris-
    This isn’t a flame, either 🙂
    Remember when the Lakers won the NBA championship, a couple of years ago? A bunch of idiots decided to set some cars on fire, and act like jerks.
    If you watched the news here, and weren’t familiar with the geography of LA, you’d think that the whole city was going up in flames, and everyone was out of their mind.
    I live just 20 minutes from downtown, and my whole neighborhood was completely quiet, except for the tinny sound of Britney Spears coming out of a neighbor’s radio a few houses away.
    Would it be accurate to say that all Laker fans were idiots who set things on fire? Yes, if you’d only seen that news footage of the 5 blocks around the Staples Center.
    See what I’m going for, here?
    and one more thing to think about…Bush and Co would LOVE to march into Baghad (sic?), and finish daddy’s war…and didn’t that footage of Iraqi’s dancing and singing make everyone’s blood boil?
    Enough to say, “Let’s turn Iraq to glass, when we’re done with Afghanistan?”
    Totally not a flame, but just something to think about.

16. I sympathise with you Wil that there are civilians dying in this war (and yes, even though there is no declaration, this IS a war), but I don’t see how we can design a bomb that is compact, yet deadly enough to kill a single person. I also realize that there have been a few mistaken bombings in this conflict. The errors of computer guidance systems are inevidable. No computer is perfect, it only does what it is told. My point is, I’d like to hear what you think about how they could develop a weapon that could deliver its payload on a target without during minimal damage on a surrounding area.

17. F*%$ You, I won’t do what’cha told me!!!

18. MEDIA PROPOGANDA MY ASS!! The American media can report about the US president getting blow jobs in the oval office, about the the bush twins using fakes to get drunk, they can report on any damn thing they want. You people that claim that the INDEPENDANT MEDIA is full of propoganda are full of horse shit. They have a freedom of speech and exercise it, and openly criticize our government, as opposed to STATE CENSORED MEDIA, like in China, Iraq, Iran, and many other countries. If you left winged conspiracy theorists actually fucking believe that horse shit, then maybe you are watching too much Al Jazeera thinking that 9/11 was orchestrated by Jews and that Israel runs the US. You people who say this about the media need a serious wake up call.
    Brian S Gerrard
    -middle winged average joe american that can make up his own damn mind about shit due to facts and not what some ideological social group tells them what to think, like radical left and radical right winged assholes

19. “The first casualty of war is truth”

20. Hey Wil…
    I think I’m pretty much on the opposite end of the political spectrum from you. I’d like to share with you this fact: most military members feel the same way you do about the killing of innocents. Even those killed accidently by US forces. Find a soldier or pilot who has accidently killed civilians, and I will show you a man who has probably had some long talks with the chaplain since then. Very much like a police officer who accidently hits a bystander during a shootout with armed felons. Perhaps we differ on what should be done to prevent these tragic deaths (i.e, we think training and better equipment and intelligence; you may think just stay home and play it safe,) but that’s a different subject. You’re OK, my man.
    And another thing: the term “collateral damage” is NOT used by the military to describe the deaths of innocent civilians. I think that term is bandied about by the liberal press to make the military appear heartless. Collateral damage is generally considered good, like dropping a bomb on a hangar and getting the nearby fuel farm to blow up also. Killing innocent civilians is never good and never “acceptable.”

21. I have this thought to add to this topic: a lot of people here are pointing out that the people in WTC, the Pentagon, and the hijacked aircraft were the targets. Were. As in past-tense.
    Wrong. We are STILL the targets. And this is not a war of nations. This is a war of ideologies. And we are still in grave danger.
    Forget it at your own risk.

22. Oh, and Karol reminded me: nice Rage allusion. I also liked the line in Bulls on Parade about “that five sided fistagon.” And “…they don’t have to burn the books, they just remove ’em.” Great music. But they don’t know jack about the military.

23. Wil, I just wanted to say that I totally agree with you. I wish there was some way out there to support the military and not the “war on terrorism.” All of these deaths of innocent people has been my major disagreeance since Day One, and I think you really covered everything that I didn’t have the words to express.
    >
    That is sooo true. I think that Bush and the media and everyone are twisting our minds so that there’s no room for sympathty for ANYONE in Afghanistan, and that’s not right. Don’t get me wrong, I think that what happened on 9-11 is horrible and terrible and an absolute nightmare, but I think Bush is over-exaggerating what we have to do to “get revenge.” And that’s all that it is — revenge. We’re bombing them because they don’t like us, and they are letting us know. And this whole “no negotiations” thing is a load of BS. if these people were willing to negotiate, that means they were willing to give up and stop the deaths. But some big-headed W. decided to be big and mighty and respond with bombs.
    I’m never offended by any of your thoughts/posts — I find them thought-provoking and almost exactly how I feel. (I find it a little “scary” that a 15-year-old girl like myself thinks so much like Wil Wheaton, though….) My comments, however, may offend some people, and I’m sorry.

24. What disturbs me about all this is our countrys lack of respect for people outside the country. Do you know that thru NATO that there is an anti-missle aggreement that the US can blow up Nucular missles over Canada before they get to the US. the US government is too much a bully and the people of the US have to suffer. And it doesn’t help that the media is in the governments pocket. I look at the information being given with the US patriotic slant and I just want to scream. I whatch the BBC news to get any kind of clear “tell it like it is” objective news. You think that the people of the US have control of our government, but it is really scarey how much we don’t. We don’t elect a president every four years ….we elect a King. The congressmen and Senitors are Lords and Dukes. I am so tired of seeing everything the US does as some kind of show production.

25. -I know this will probably get a lot of strange feedback if any one reads this part but,It unfortuanatly needs to be realized. Now over there in their world all the Taliban and those types I can’t even begin to name the types- Afganistan and such they beleive what “there” Government tells them. Just like now they are thankfull that they have music back and t.v.yet there are those small remote areas that don’t get the news and are still unfortunatly ruled over and guarded by Terrorists. These small villages of people who have to live in fear and are fed lies that make them want to turn and shoot every amarican the minute they get a gun in their hands because we have it so much better over here.I know that this can’t hardly be considered as far as how my point gets across but in the movie “Three Kings”- Marc Walberg, George Clooney they are at a point were Marc W. Charactor gets captured and the Saudi man keeps assuming that “Marc” is from Arizona that were he lives everything is just fine for him- he then goes to tell “marc” about how his little child was killed in her sleep after a bombing causes the roof to collaps and cave in on the child’s crib crushing him/her while sleeping- that’s it the child is dead- the bombing he blamed the american’s and for that he was going to not just die but suffer.
    -Now while the fact remains that 9/11 wtc,pentagon and the other flight all of them people died- and people are quickly forgeting that already that some died slow and in pain the crews of those on the plains were cut w/razors and stabbed.
    -the people in the buildings for so many of them that is their tomb! It is one huge Crime Scene! that No, errecting a statue is not enough but for some of us will have to do in the American Effort to show we haven’t given up.To show our spirit hasn’t broken.
    ….Yes war sucks
    ….Yes death sucks
    ….but life goes on and continues.The sun rises and sets, my children will grow and how I teach them to understand “and hopefully they will” will affect tomorrow.i don’t understand War, nor do condone it/dissapprove of it. But it’s been around since before my time, people spilling Valuable blood for their beleifs all in the name of their (deity).We could cut off the hands of theives and terrists so then we will know who they are, just like they used to cut off the prick of rapists.Or We could find them brand them with a burn like cattle- to be pelted by rocks from passers by to be singled out.Then we are back in the dark ages and yet it seems we’ve learned nothing.One of the first things said after the bombings by a reporter who’s name escapes me,”We are paying for things our Parents and Grandparents did in past wars-” So when are we going to start getting it right? We can only hope to live a world “the utopia” but at the rate we are going it’s not going to happen in this life time- I don’t always have to perfect thing to say and I often have foot in mouth syndrome,
    but how are we suppose to make it better?

26. to climb the walls over thousands of innocent afgani civillian casualties today, months after the first US bombing is missing a very obvious point: THE US HAS BEEN BOMBING AFGANISTAN FOR MONTHS. it amazes me when people act so shocked that innocents are dying in a war, when that’s exactly why war is so frickin bad. do you feel misled by the nature of “surgical ” strikes that actually kill good people instead of bad people? would you feel better if 10 people died than 1000? why? why do those ten deserve to die any more than the thousand? as much as this and previous administrations (also led by a Bush…hmmm) like to flaunt the sophistication of the US arsenal’s accurate weaponry, let there be no mistake that a bomb is a bomb, and bombing equals killing. if you have a beef, you should back-date it to the first day of US air strikes. to complain now, February 8, that bombs are killing people is like someone who voted for Nader complaining about Bush being president.
    what I’m trying to say is “duh.”

27. Wil,
    This is NOT a flame. :):) In fact it’s not even a cherry-tipped piece of cardboard which might, if struck on a rough surface, result in a flame.
    Of course one must take whatever is shown on the media, be the media openly controlled by one’s own government or only ideologically, with a healthy helping of salt. All things are either exaggerated for the sake of news or hushed up for the sake of politics. Sure. Granted. My point wasn’t that everyone in the Middle East, or even Iraq popped open a bottle of champagne and sang Old Lang Syne to the memory of the two towers. My point was to illustrate that human nature dictates that we will view more favorably the death of a construed enemy — especially one at great distance — than that of an ally. WHICH IS NOT TO SAY that everyone in the middle east is an enemy (or that everyone in the Middle East sees every one of us as the enemy). This was, I believe, in response to the antiseptic nature of our media coverage of Afghan civilian deaths. But even if you don’t buy that argument, should the media as an industry be expected to take a partisan position on military actions? IE, it’s not as if they are saying “YAY! Another 500 Afghans have been annihilated in Kandahar! Don’t you love it when the radar goes awry!!” Why would that be more inherently absurd than using the news of those deaths to undermine the nation’s solidarity? Just a question. Not even sure what I think about it.
    Pffffft!

28. Well, I’ve been silently following this discussion thread and decided it was time to say something.
    To Daniel Kratz — you presented your arguments well but this caught my eye, “If you want to survive, you have to defend yourself.” It is simply impossible to defend yourself when you are half-starved, uneducated, impovrished,and repressed, when your home is being bombed.
    And for people who would too quickly generalize about “The Enermy” (whom ever they may be), I can tell you that, as a person who has traveled in the third world and witnessed astounding poverty, people who are in a serious state of destitution often have little, if any, say in the government, even if it was elected “by” the people. People in impovrished states often know very little about their governments and its’ policies, have little if any education, and hardly any knowledge of international affairs. Whatever they are told by their government is often the only knowledge they may have. If they are told America is Satan, well than, America is Satan. If getting rid of America will be a panacea, than America needs to be dealt away with. Poverty makes people very, very desperate.
    And to Brian Gerrard — yes, you see exactly what the media wants you to see, how they want you to see it and when they want you to see it.
    Well, I’m off to hold hands, pray for world peace, and sing “combayah.”
    And on a more serious note, there is *nothing* more devestating than having a child beg you for food — anything — just one piece of bread, because they are so hungry… America is a terribly fortunate country and we are lucky to live here.
    Kate H.

29. No Kate, you are wrong. The media does not report at all on what people want to hear. Like who really gives a shit about the people in guantanamo bay in cuba, if you look at current polls nobody gives a shit. nobody gave a shit about Clinton’s hummer in the white house but that shit was all over the news. you are very misled.

30. I didn’t know congress hadn’t declared. Kinda odd. YOu know why the rest of the world hates us. Because we can’t keep our asses out of things. But you also know the rest of the world wants us to help. Sometimes I think we are caught in a catch 22. You know Palastine wants us to mediate the stuff over there. But you know if we do we are going to get a huge back lash from everyone over there. So do we go or don’t we go. I say we let everyone over there do whatever they are going to do. If that means killing each other so be it. We are hated cause we do too much. We aren’t the police of the world. I know we care but sometimes its alright to care but stay out of it. This war on the other hand is different. We were attacked so I think we have a right to defend ourselves and feel safe. Innocent people dying sucks and that should never happen. But I think in war we can’t be perfect which sucks too. So it’s do you let them try to control the USA or do you defend yourself. Sucks big time. It really does. I just want to be safe and the men over seas fighting I am proud of. And hopefully they make this world not just the USA but this world a bit more safer. Ok thats my ramble.

31. Hi Wil,
    I do have to agree with you, the killing of innocent Afghan civilians does make my stomach turn. But your post does have a decidedly Evil-American-Government tone to it. Unfortunately, “collateral damage,” as the military calls it, is a fact of war. It happens. I’m not justifying it or condoning it, but unless we want to send our own military suicide bombers into Al-Qaeda’s cave offices, this type of “collateral damage” is most likely going to occur.
    Just think of it this way: You’re an Air Force officer flying over Afghanistan in your plane when you see something that looks suspiciously like an Al-Qaeda secret meeting. They match the descriptions you have of some known terrorists, and your intel says that they had direct links to the 9-11 terrorists. But then again..you can’t be SURE. They could just be local civilians. What do you do? It’s an easy answer in the military, but it’s not an easy answer for a human being, and even thought that pilot has to follow orders, that doesn’t mean he or she isn’t struggling internally with the ethics of the decision. With all this talk of having utmost respect for men and women in the military, there certainly seems to be a lot MORE talk implying that they are cold, heartless bastards willing to bomb anyone and anything. Let me just say that EVERYONE in the military grapples with their decisions, from the commander-in-Chief to the Chairman of the Joint Chief to the corporal who is forced to pull the trigger in what MIGHT be self defense. These are people, and yes, the military desensitizes you, but it doesn’t make you inhuman. And by the way, the US hasn’t fought a formally declared war since World War II.
    Want to hear something REALLY sick? Two of my professors have repeatedly suggested that the real culprit for the 9-11 attacks was none other than George W. Bush, who engineered the hijackings in order to rally the public around him and bring legitimacy to his “skeptical” presidency. That’s sick.

32. I give a sh**.
    And I never said that the media reports on “what people want to hear.”
    Kate H.

33. And whoever referred to the USA as terrorists you just make me mad. If you want to live in fear so be it. I want to live in a safe world. Hopefully you get to enjoy that safety too. *sighs* Or lets all agree that we all are idiots and suck and are bitches to each other and all deserve to die and move on? Eh? Okay? Everyone happy?

34. No way Kat!! I would like omg. I am speechless at that. Frankly Bin Laden and the terrorists were a problem long before Bush came into office. The USS Cole. The first WTC bombing. The Embassies.(sp?) So you can tell your professors to shove their heads up their asses cause it already sounds like thats where they are.

35. Let’s say 3,000 civilians died in Afghanistan from our bombs. But what if we were now able to save 30,000 through vaccinations and other aid that wasn’t possible when the Taliban was in power?

36. Brian,
    You are led like a blind sheep. the US should report on other things. the US media should talk about other stuff. How can the US people get a real world objective and imformed opinion of things?? the Afgan problem was going on well before 9/11 but nobody in the US saw it coming because the media made it low priority. Why should something have to happen to us for us to pay bloody well attention to us. We are a bunch of spoiled attention getting brats. Shame on us.

37. Wil,
    I know what you’re saying. I went through a lot of emotions after 9-11. First shock…then fear…then saddnes…and finally anger. Although I mourn the losses of fellow Americans and want vengence, I do not want to fight a war that cannot be won. There will always be nations that do not agree with our beliefs and way of life. Some in this country no not agree. We can’t kill them all. Who will be next?

38. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who is and has been participating in this discussion.
    This is not exactly a non-emotional issue, and I just wanted to commend everyone on their conduct, regardless of what opinion you hold on this subject.
    I’ve been sitting here, hitting F5 for quite awhile, and each time there is a new comment, it causes me to think, and thinking is a good thing.
    The diversity of opinions here is equalled only by the civility of the discourse.
    Thank you, everyone. We honor the memories of the victims, by debating what the world will become, I think.

39. Oh, wait.
    Never mind.
    Dang. :/

40. What do us the people of the US want? personally? In general? What do we need??

41. What I responded. Refresh Wil Refresh. LOL!! We love you anyways no matter how much you annoy us. 🙂

42. I as a US citizen need a husband. No on a more serious level I think we need to know we are safe more than anything. Or at least need to know that we can be protected.

43. It is such bad Karma that we dish out. There never seems to be totally good in anybody nor total bad…such deep desturbing grey.

44. And it suddenly got quiet.

45. Wil, I actually posted this story on my own site when I ran across it earlier today. But my reaction to it was a lot different than yours.
    Your position on this is VERY weak and narrow. While we may not like the concept of “collateral damage”, it’s just a fact.
    We are over there in Afghanistan because the Afghan people are either unable or unwilling to solve the problem themselves. I have yet to get a straight answer on that question. I keep hearing Islam = Peace… but CNN says different. And we all remember the thousands of people dancing/cheering in the streets after Sept. 11.
    In any war there will always be casulties and suffering. And there is usually a LOT more leading up to the war, which is the reason for the war.
    You can cower in the corner and cry “peace” or get up and kick the crap out of the bad guys. No offense, but your attitude helps to empower the very evil we’re fighting.
    I’m sorry that there were innocent casulties, but who is to blame? The United States, the terrorists, or the terrorists and the lack of action on the part of the civilians?
    You say, “I realize that, in war, civilian deaths are inevitable, but that doesn’t mean that I have to like it, and I fear that there are people who will read this story, and it won’t bother them a bit that a mother lost a son in our pursuit of the terrorists.”
    Duh, but should we sit around crying with the girls, and feeling sorry for ourselves? I mean come on. Be a man.
    “Countless Iraqi civilians died during the Operation Desert Storm, simply because they were in the wrong place, at the wrong time”
    That is complete falsehood. You paint an image of a family tending the flowers in its garden when all of a sudden, from nowhere, a bomb drops and it turns into a scene from ‘Platoon’. What a bunch of crap.
    These innocent victims supported the Iraqi government. They put Saddam into power, and follow him. They volunteer to place their kids into terrorist camps. They willingly execute someone caught with a Bible, practicing homosexuality, or doing anything that is against the peaceful Islam.
    Our servicemen die to protect us, and these *innocent* people, and it’s our fault? Don’t try and back out of the statement by saying you support the defenders of this country. If you really did then you would not have dedicated so much of your front page to this peacnic crap. You could have posted one of a million other stories out there talking about what they are doing, but you chose to speak on this instead.
    Wil, I think it’s great that you’re trying to releive suffering, but all you’re doing is prolonging it.

46. Some of the anger that come out of people scares me but also it makes me proud to know they care so much. ROCK ON PEOPLES!!

47. I live in Los Angeles. I take cabs often. The day before yesterday, my cabdriver happened to be Afghani. His name was Takaa. He told me that 32 members of his family were wiped out last month by an American bomb. 32 members of his family. His two uncles, their wives, and all of their children. One bomb. How many Takaas do you think there are in Afghanistan?

48. I posted somewhere and I know its sorta of crappy but we are all mean and bitches and jerks and all deserve to die. So move on. And shit happens. It sucks but it happens. But BUT! At least we aren’t killing because we just feel like that they should be wiped out. If you think we are then you are saddly mistaken.

49. “Our servicemen die to protect us, and these *innocent* people, and it’s our fault? Don’t try and back out of the statement by saying you support the defenders of this country. If you really did then you would not have dedicated so much of your front page to this peacnic crap. ”
    Andrew, that’s unfair. One of the best things about having a government that at least parades around like a democracy is that of questioning its decisions without fear of being shot. There’s no conflict between a person supporting those pursuing the policies of the government while questioning the wisdom of the policy. And it certainly doesn’t bespeak a lack of manhood. To NOT be ambivalent on an issue like this is to oversimplify the ramifications of EVERYONE’S actions.

50. DaleJr.
    Than why are we starting war type of threats to those other countrys?? They have not attacked us…there is only thought that they will do something to us.

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