288 thoughts on “Killing in the name of…”

1. A series of commentaries on Afghanistan if anyone wants to do some reading.
   http://www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/columnists/whitneyazoy.html

2. I just wonder at what point we become the evil we’re fighting against. And while I can’t speak for any service men or women, our government certainly isn’t over there to protect innocent people – it’s been said a million times already tonight, we didn’t give a shit what happened to the people in Afghanistan until Sept. 11 – we’re over there for revenge and to make sure no one attacks us again, not to try and help the Afghani’s who have been suffering under the Taliban’s regime. As for the “innocent” people, (and I know someone said this earlier, but I don’t want to wade through the old posts to credit them – just know it’s not my original idea), no adult human is truly innocent. That doesn’t mean that killing them to serve our own ends is justified, regardless of what they’ve done in the name of Islam. I’m sure there were some racists or gay bashers that died in the WTC attacks that used Christianity to justify their actions – does this mean they were any more deserving a target of the terrorists than anyone else that died that day? We’re not bombing Afghanistan (or Iraq, before) because they executed Christians or gays in the name of Islam – we’re doing it for our own reasons, and they don’t have anything to do with Afghani civilians. In other words, we’re not seeking justice for anyone but ourselves. Regardless of whether or not you support the government’s stance in this “war”, at least be honest about our reasons for being in it, instead of trying to make this out to be the US taking on terrorism and the Taliban to help everyone else out. As a nation, we only care about ourselves and our interests. Period.

3. I agree with Chris. I appreciate all that the armed forces for protecting and fighting for us. Maybe I’m selfish. My brother is a marine. I’d much rather have him home right now. I worry for his safety, but I know he doing what he thinks is right. We have to agree to disagree.

4. This country didn’t attack us but the terrorists that did are there and they were warned. Remember we told them all you have to do is hand them over and we won’t do anything hell we even delayed the date to start bombing to give them the option to turn the terrorists over to us but they refused and we acted. If they didn’t want us to bomb them they should have turned the people they were harboring over. Plain and simple they didn’t do as we asked and we acted.

5. And Iraq is just something that should have been dealt with a long time ago. I believe also he said he would do something not that we just think.

6. After reading all that is here, and thinking it over, I’d figure I’d put my opinion in. it’s a bit long, so please bear with me.
   First, I grieve deeply. For the lost way of (my) life, for those lives lost here and abroad, for a number of things. I happened to be uncomfortably close to the Trade Center when it collapsed. Secondly, I’m about as Anti-war as one could get. The rant in the URL should prove it. Frankly, I don’t care if it’s not formally declared. When we drop bombs on targets and cause ‘collateral damage’, it’s war, no matter what we say it is. Vietnam was a war, dammit.
   I realize that the trade centre was an intentional target. The terrorists have tried this before? Remember 1993?? That should have woken up the government then. But no one paid attention, and here we are now.
   Terrorism is unlike any ‘traditional’ form of war that history has seen. Pardon my trip down history lane here, but I’ll keep it short:
   In the Renaissance, it was people on horseback, and guys wielding spiky clubs, axes, etc. in the Revolutionary times, it was a bunch of guys wearing colorful clothing lined up in a row shooting muskets at each other. The Colonists was called uncouth because we broke that mold of ‘traditional’ and use guerilla tactics. The Brits were stunned. How could these heathens go running around, hiding in the brush, and shoot down people?
   Terrorism is war on civilians in an attempt to force the attacked country to recognize the group’s sovereignty/ cause/ point/ demands. Except that the ’cause’ in this case is to get the US to stop meddling in the affairs of the world. In certain ways, I agree. We Americans do a lot of stupid things in the world and are hated for a variety of reasons that other have mentioned above. But if they looked around a bit, they’d also notice that Americans are also trying to do good. Can you not fault us for at least trying?

7. I just want to give a thought to everyone…Because what you read. There is alot of editorials on things but you got to remember what an editorial is…It is someone elses opinion/viewpoint.

8. Ah, didn’t know what the URl in the commetns thing-y did.
   Please direct flame to this addy.

9. yes Afganistan should have been dealt with along time ago but my problem is the US seems to get the big brother effect….even though there is the UN. The world should help and decide what to do about dangerous countrys or people not the soul desiion of the US. BTW the US hasn’t paid its UN dues in a long long time.

10. 1) I agree with you about 9/11.
    2) Stop apologizing for your beliefs.
    That’s all…

11. Chris, you’re right. You can support the servicemen while being against the men giving them orders. I did not mean it that way.
    Wil threw in some words of *support* to the servicemen in an attempt to not appear totally anti-war (or anti-american)… but that’s exactly what his news post relveals.
    His post is an emotional reaction, and completely lacks thought. His lack of ‘manhood’ is not in questioning the policies of our government, it’s in having an emotional anti-war reaction without using your head. It’s a very weak-minded attitude.
    Our efforts over there are intended to accomplish 3 main things.
    1) Proect the U.S. from any further casulties. Our number one responsibility is to protect our own. If a million civilians have to die to accomplish that then so be it. Family first, charity later.
    2) Seek out and punish those responsible for attacking us.
    3) Liberate the innocents in Afghanistan and give them their country back. If these people truly are *innocent* then they should be damned thankful to have our help. The government that they empowered is responsible for all this. We’ll see what they do with our charity.

12. Don’t forget:
    5) Prop up fake economy by giving assloads of money to war profiteers.
    6) Build “Dick Cheney Memorial Oil Pipeline” right through downtown Kabul.

13. Wil:
    I am glad you realized your error. It’s a common one, so don’t feel bad about it. You see, the problem with nations at war is that the wrong people almost ALWAYS die. Joe Taliban or the Al Queda members in Afghanistan didn’t start this war, it was Osama Bin Laden. The responsibility for any war can ultimately be placed upon the heads of just a handful of men, usually the head of totalitarian governments or any system other than freely elected leaders.
    Unfortunately, the people are often the victims on both sides of war. I wish I could give the President and Bin laden the handgun of their choice, place them ten meters apart, and let them blast away. However, it doesn’t work that way. So, the United States has two options. Have defenses so strong that any attack will fail, or have sufficient retaliatory capability to make such a foolish attack so God-Awfully expensive that no one would ever try it again.
    Remember, people are ultimately responsible for the type of government they have, even in dictatorships. It’s a harsh truth, but that is the view from the cheap seats.
    Wil, please keep writing what you do. I don’t agree with a lot of the political stuff (at least the foreign policy stuff) you write, but I respect you for having the guts and the innate interest in the subject to post it.
    (insert Deity Here) Bless Us, Everyone
    Trevor Paul Pyle

14. oops.
    4) Further ignore domestic social issues such as education in favor of short term poll gains which are always achieved when some incompetent goofus decides to get himself out of a popularity slump by bombing some underfed conscripts in the name of Mom and Apple Pie, Inc.

15. Andrew,
    Ok, I’ll bite.
    Rebuttals mostly around.
    1. “Proect the U.S. from any further casulties.”
    To believe that we can do this is sheer naivete. At best, military action can stamp out the seeds of the current militants while sowing the seeds of the next generation. We can NEVER protect ourselves from future casualties solely on the basis of armamaments. That is, unless we bomb THE REST OF THE WORLD. In which case, our country would inevitably dissolve into warring factions.
    2. Ok, making a martyr of Bin Laden will satisfy our need for vengeance, but at what price?
    3. “Liberate the innocents in Afghanistan and give them their country back. If these people truly are *innocent* then they should be damned thankful to have our help. The government that they empowered is responsible for all this.”
    Riiiiiight. If you think for one moment that any government we put back into power over there (ie, friendly to American interests) is “giving them their country back” you’re wrong. Any sane Afghan would want to obliterate us after what we’ve done to their country. They were bad enough off before. They’re worse now. Also, WE put the Taliban into power after we helped them shove out the Russians. Now that the dog has bitten two fingers off the hand that fed it, so to speak, we’re to replace it with another dog and expect the pack to be grateful?
    Apologies for the crudeness of the metaphors, all, I intend no white man’s burden here.

16. I agree with you almost entirely, Wil. Except for this:
    “If you’re a serviceman or woman, I don’t have a problem with you, or the choice you’ve made to defend our country.”
    Isn’t that similar (not EQUAL TO, I said SIMILAR) to telling Nazi soldiers that you’re okay with them, because they’re just following orders?
    No, no, I am NOT saying that U.S. servicepeoples are on the same boat as Nazi soldiers — not at all. But saying you don’t have a problem with these peoples’ choice to “defend their country,” when they obviously have no problem (or not a big enough problem for them to question what they’re doing) with wiping out innocents?
    Anyone else see this as a little strange?

17. Hey Trevor,
    Bin Laden isn’t some Satan wannabe. Nor is Bush. Both are products of the environment and history in which they live. The Middle East has been RIFE with people who would have waged war on the U.S. if they had the means by which to do so. Bin Laden happens to be the name of the millionaire who did it and Bush happens to be the name of the Pres. who’s here during it. Sure, the extent might not have been the same were the variables changed — it could possibly have been worse. [not that I am in ANY way diminishing what happened.]
    Hey here’s a question. Anyone have any hypotheses on what Gore would have done?

18. Andrew Davis,
    I think that your view of will isn’t well thought out and shows your lack of emotional sensitivity towards his differance of opinion to yours. I think Wil has plenty of manhood for being able express his thoughts and feelings on something with out a cockiness common to the testosterone driven typical male.

19. This might piss some people off, but I’m going to say it anyway…
    Wil, you asked why the government hasn’t officially declared this a war. I think it’s because they are afraid we won’t win. I think it’s like the Vietnam war…we never offically declared it a war so we have an unblemished official record. We are 100% perfect.
    Get it?

20. I relate to what you’re saying, Wil. I don’t agree with the war on an ethical level either, but at the same time, I feel like it HAS to be & is the only solution. It’s only rational for our government to protect our country by dealing with terrorism first hand. I’m grateful to my country, my governtment & all of our service men & women that do everything they can to keep us safe. At the same time, I wish we could all keep some perspective & realize that it’s not about wiping out a certain race or country & not about revenge or even “making things right”. NOTHING can make right what happened to us. But we do need to deal with terrorism against America & the rest of the world. Amercica is the only country that can cope with it, & we will.
    Now about your burning question: “…of course it’s a war. But why hasn’t it been formally declared?” Not that I’m an expert, but it seems rather obvious to me, the reason it hasn’t been *technically* declared a war is because war in the conventional sense is waged against countries, not concepts. This war, however, is one against the concept of terrorism, not the Afghan people or any country. Without a tangible, quantifiable “target” or enemy, how can war ever really be declared?
    Also, you cited the way the rest of the world holds a grudge against America. I feel, personally, that this has less to do with our foreign policy as is so commonly pointed out, & more to do with the simple fact that America is the most powerful nation in the world. That contempt & attention we get from other countries is nothing more than the price we pay for our status. Afterall, the terrorists of Afghanistan are convinced that we’re evil & commited to their destruction, but if not for their attack on the World Trade Center, most of us would never hear or think about their country or their people. Think about it: we never gave them a passing thought, but they focused on us — just because we’re in the spotlight.

21. I know war sucks, but it’s neccessary to supress evil in this world.
    If the US had not gotten involved in WWII against Japan and Germany. Far worse things would’ve had happened.
    If the US and Europe had decided not to fight back against evil, Germany would have won the world.
    Germany would have killed every single Jew, Gypsy, blacks, homosexuals, disabled people and everything that the Arian Nation would have considered non-arian.
    Germany would have created a total white population around the world. (especially his dream of a white world with blonde hair and blue eyes).
    But we did get involved and we kicked evil in the ass and we won.
    Germany had the biggest army in the world, Hitler had more soliders than any nation in the world, they had more tanks, planes, and all kinds of weapons of war.
    They had the best ships (including the Bismark, which took hours for it to sink to the bottom, they had the biggest cannons in the world. One shot would’ve blown up one single ship out of the water.)
    It was a miracle that we even won given the odds that was against us.
    While the terrorists blew up two of our WTC buildings and nearly 3,000 lives was lost. We were not purposely bombing innocent civilians. Like all the wars in the past, innocent lives do get killed.
    The Afgans got killed by bad bombs gone astray, it’s unfortunant, but it happens. This isn’t the first time that innocent lives died because of bombs landing in the wrong places.
    But if we don’t do something, more lives will be lost to terrorists.
    So sitting back and give no response to the WTC bombing will not keep the terrorists from doing it again.
    When Pearl Harbor has attacked by Japan, are you saying that our response by attacking Japan and eventually dropping the Atom Bomb twice was all wrong? Should we have just said, “Ok, we’re lifting the sanctions against Japan so you can get your oil! We learned our lesson!” ???

22. Hey Wil, here’s an idea.
    Listen to what people in Afghanistan actually say about the bombing instead of what your liberal media says. Listen to Karzai (The new leader of Afghanistan) talk about people who lost loved ones (which is a tragedy and unfortunate, no doubt about it) but at the same time feel the joy that freedom brings. Afghans, unlike many other people, realize the price of freedom. Many people here in America take it for granted. Afghans do not.
    Do you truly have any idea what freedom means to these people? I’d like to see how you would feel after living under the Taliban, who constantly killed Afghans, beat Afghan women, limited everything they could do, etc.
    I am sure there were people in Afghanistan prepared to die so that their children would have freedom.
    Would you give your life so your children could be free, Wil? Think about it.

23. About the handing over of the terrorists- the Taliban stated that they were willing to hand over Osama to a third party nation if they were presented with evidence proving that he was complicit in the attacks. The U.S. never did so, although it presented said evidence to all its allies, who were quite vocal in stating that it fingered Osama and Al Qaeda as planning the attacks. Why didn’t the U.S. just give it to them? If they had and the Taliban had still refused, they would have further justification to attack, and if the Taliban gave up Osama, then problem solved.

24. re: declarations of war
    The goverment of the u.s. has not historically declared war upon people or groups, only on nations. I suspect *THAT* is why congress has not declared war upon anyone.
    Despite the spin that the government is attempting to put on the “war,” I suspect that targetting a nation would probably cause far more foreign backlash than america is currently getting, because there is no way the terrorist attacks can solidly be blamed on any one nation.
    Suppose the u.s. did try to pin the attacks on, say, Poland. There’s no clear evidence that Poland supported the attacks, of course. If the u.s. attacks Poland because of the terrorist attacks, then, there is good cause for every other nation in the world to wonder when america would turn on them without specific provocation.
    Note that this scenario is a “WHAT IF,” not an indictment of Poland. Of course, Poland *IS* a historically militarily weak country.
    Maybe america will target them next.

25. Re: Karzai and his statements
    Hm. A ruler installed essentially by american diktat supports american actions.
    Shocking

26. About the U.S. and Europe going to war with Germany and Japan for moral reasons- For one, I don’t how it can be called a moral war, since the European powers that declared war on Germany did so because of treaty obligations with Poland, and the U.S. only entered the war after being attacked by Japan. Also, it’s debatable whether the U.S. would have declared war on Germany, since the United States easily matched Germany in terms of industrial output and would have been at little risk of attack. Germany declared war on the U.S. in solidarity with Japan, a quite foolish move, especially since the military alliance signed with Japan only required them to defend Japan if attacked, not attack other countries simply because Japan had. As well, Germany’s armed forces, although well trained and well led, had some defiencies- France actually had more and better tanks than the Germans, they simply deployed them ineffectually. As for the largest army, the Russians quickly surpassed the Germans in terms of size, greatly exceeding German estimates, and is quite likely that Russia could have defeated Germany on its own, albeit with much more bloodshed on both sides. This isn’t to insult the contribution of the U.S. during World War 2, which was very substantial and helped bring about the collapse of three fascist governments, making the world a better place, I’m simply pointing out the war wasn’t originally fought for moral reasons-towards the end of the war, military leaders were aware of the significance of the trains heading towards the death camps, but didn’t divert military resources in order to disrupt the transport of the Jews to their doom, since they were concerned with defeating the Nazis.

27. this whole posts reminds me of the jab you took at George Bush about the Choice issue (playing the abortion card)
    I dont remember any other posts about all the suffering in the world, the starvation & desperate conditions that so many live in but now you are concerned about the civilians in Afghanistan?
    Seems like the hot button is that you still hate George Bush.
    What ever you want to say about the man, I bet he would be smart enough to make a decision to exterminate Rats if he had them in his attic and not try to negotiate with them.
    And the posts thanking you for putting everything in perspective, GMAFB

28. Wil,
    It is pretty plain that you are a liberal Democrat. And I’m okay with that. I happen to sit, on most issues, on the other side of “the fence” as it were.
    I’d like to address some points brought up not only by you, but by others who have commented here.
    War is the most horrible of human undertakings. It is nasty, and brutish, and cruel. It is awful in the extreme. It is also sometimes necessary.
    We cannot, absolutely must not, let 9/11 go by without a military response. And, in war, there are always civilian casualties. Always. It is the worst part of war. And it is hated by those (of good conscience) whom are engaged in war.
    My goodness, as I was reading your entry and the previous comments, I had so much to say on so many points. I’ll not even touch on half of them. But here goes…
    Civilians will die in Afghanistan, but the count of how many is not (and probably never will be) accurately known. You’re getting your info from the New York Times, the most liberal and anti-President-Bush media outlet there is. We don’t know that “thousands” of Afghani civilians have been killed. “Hundreds” is quite likely, simply guessing at the number, though.
    The anti-American sentiment in much of the rest of the world is, to a great extent, justified. US foreign policy is dictated by what would be best for America. But it is not done for the sake of evil. Don’t fall into that trap, Wil. The vast majority of “evil” is merely the result of someone or some group pursuing their own best self-interests. But that doesn’t make it nice, especially if you are on the short end of the stick. But America, economically, militarily, has no equal. None that really even comes close. So, when two parties go to a table to work out a deal, it is always the party with the upper hand that ends up with the best side of the bargain. And for the last LONG while, this is ALWAYS the US.
    But Wil, you (and the rest of us, myself included) have to seperate the fact from the feeling when considering the motivations and explanations of the big goings-on in the world. You have called the President “Emporer Bush”, and much worse. Is this because you really, really don’t like him, or because you think he is evil, or what? People call him stupid (he graduated from Harvard, not at the top of his class, but how many of you can say the same?), they call him linked to “Big Oil” (yeah, he ran an oil company, oil is big business [and needless, but that’s for another discussion]). Always, always, always consider what is the *real* prime motivation of any person whose actions you are viewing. President Bush isn’t evil. The war on terror (although brutish, as all war is) isn’t evil.
    But what the terrorists did on 9/11 *is* evil. There are rules to war, and they were *completely* disregarded.
    I also read in another comment someone saying that the US should pay off some of the 3rd world’s debt. This is typical liberal thinking. Rather, not thinking, but feeling. IMHO, liberals are GREAT at feeling (their hearts are usually in the right place), but not so good at rational, reasoned thinking (their conclusions are usually arrived at through faulty logic or well-intentioned but ill-conceived or unjustified assumptions). Think of it. If the US were to pay off all of a 3rd world countries’ debt, NO creditor would ever loan them money again. If you have a child who is constantly in trouble, do you keep bailing him out and never force him to face the consequences of his actions? This is not how people grow. The same applies to countries, as it does to ANYONE or ANYTHING that borrows money. If they keep having their butts saved, they will never learn the consequences of their actions. Look what happened when that fool leader of some country (it’s name escapes me just now) declared that that country had no debt, that none of it’s debt would be paid off ever. Their economy went in the shitter, because noone wants to lend them money or do business with them again. No man, or country, is an island in the world (and I do mean world) of commerce.
    My thoughts are now terribly disjointed, and I didn’t say even a third of what I wanted to say in rebuttal. Suffice to say that the US ends up on the right side much more often than the wrong side; yes, the US needs to drastically re-examine it’s foreign policy; and you really have to set aside your own feelings and really think logically and clearly when trying to divine the motivations of others.
    Feh. This comment isn’t nearly what I wanted it to be, but I shall let is stand as it.
    Email me at [email protected] if anyone cares to discuss this further. My Yahoo ID is Deltus456. My website is http://www.scratchingtheitch.com if anyone cares to visit.
    And remember, Wil: even though we may be on opposite sides of the political “fence”, I am still okay with you having, and stating publicly, your views and opinions. It shows you have a pair, and I respect and admire that.
    – Bob Roth

29. As a the wife of a military pilot I have to point out, that Its MY HUSBAND that could DIE for YOU-so that you can continue to complain, bitch, rant and point the finger of blame at everyone else around you. Its men and women like my husband that protect YOUR FREEDOM of everything, your rights and your ass from every enemy we have (which is a pretty large number). I go to bed every night wondering-will I see him again, will he die for his country…I know he is protecting me through service to our great nation, but what thanks does he get? Lord knows, its not for the paycheck. No, he gets radical bleeding hearts who scream and bitch about death and dying in another country-but he does his job regardless of the ungrateful spoiled brats at home that wouldn’t sacrifice an hour to help out a fellow citizen stuck on the side of the road, much less sell everything they have to go help rebuild the country they feel is being treated so unjustly. My husband VOLUNTEERED for the military..he loves his job, his country, and everything that entails. If he dies, I know he’ll die doing his best-though some of you would spit out mean, uninformed insults and criticisms and jugdements. But I dont see you volunteering for active duty-like my husband did-full well knowing that he could get killed at any time to protect his fellow Americans, knowing he could widow his wife. But he smiles and tells me…”honey, they just dont understand what its like to love their country and be patriotic ALL the time, not just when a national tragedy or disaster occurs.” NO, you all take for granted the fact that you can go into a grocery store and have 185 types of cereal, 60 types of bread, 6 types of milk etc…you have all that because someone sacrificed, died, and fought for your freedom. Freedom you take for granted…you wake up in your bed, in your suburban land of privledge…and you bitch and moan and scream about defense spending, war, and the terrible military killing all those innocent people…people who danced on our black hawks when they got shot down, people who hate us for our “western thinking” and luxuries. Many military personnel are on food stamps because of the lack of military spending in the last decade…tell them you dont appreciate them volunteering to die for you, so that you can wake up and order your double tall soy latte everyday while they eat food bank cheese, kiss their kids goodbye before being shipped off to the dark corners of the world knowing they might die in a country other than their own. But they go..they go for you. So,if you want to complain-use some of your precious free time that would be spent complaining, and go volunteer at a veteran’s hospital and tell them you appreciate them-for giving you your right to bitch about how wrong it was for them to kill somebody in a previous military conflict. Non-military people are so pompous, arrogant and self-righteous…you have no idea what we live with day in and day out knowing the things we do….and I’ll tell you this, we know more than the media tells you, and usually pretty far in advance of the media getting the info and twisting the information to fit their needs, story, deadline or bias. We know about it and we live with it, we live with the fear everyday. Will you be there if my husband dies, to hold my hand and tell me that you appreciate all he did so that you could live free? Probably not. You might be on a vacation that costs more than those poor unfortunate souls in those foreign countries ever make in their LIVES. But would you send your vacation money to them for the rest your life? No, but all of you will bitch about it, and how awful we are for going after terrorism. Shame on all of you. Next time you feel the need to bitch, why dont you go down to the recruiter and sign up…go ahead-see how the other half lives.
    You might also call some of the 9-11 victims families and tell them your complaints…I’m sure they would LOVE to hear about how sorry you feel for the other side. My mom said never to pick a fight, but if someone swung at me first-to swing back and to win. We’re swinging…and we’re going to keep swinging until we win…for the WTC, Pentagon, Pa victims, for the oppressed Afghans, and for you the radical complainers who hate us. I’m sorry your life here is so harsh and you’re subjected to live in such a terrible place. It’s easy to complain about things and criticize others, but its difficult to do the things that make a difference in the world..to take action. You love to quote people…well here’s a quote for you…
    If you would not be forgotten,
    As soon as you are dead and rotten,
    Either write things worthy reading,
    Or do things worth the writing.
    I’ll let you figure out what famous American said that.
    Trust me wil, those military people fighting over there, dont intend to hurt innocent people, and the thought of it tears them up inside-trust me. They have to live with it forever. None of them want the killing and bloodshed. And all of them have families of some type, and they put it into the perspective of hurting a family member..these people cry themselves to sleep, suffer from depression, guilt, anguish,…and it hurts ten times worse when some civilian spits on them with insulting criticism and judgement. But they love their country and will do what’s necessary to defend it…they do their JOB. My heart hurts for you…you couldnt possibly understand what its like to be us, so dont judge those of us who choose the military to be in service to and support of. I feel safer knowing my husband is in the air protecting our skies from the evil of
    9-11. Next time I talk to him, and God knows when that will be..I’ll tell him how supportive the public is of his efforts.

30. It takes a big man to admit when he’s wrong. But your heart and sentiment were in the right place. Nolan and Ryan have a great stepdad!

31. Hmmm, some interesting comments but a lot of people seem to overlook the biggest supporter of terrorist in the world and that’s our own meddling US Gov’t. The CIA has a word for this and that word is “blowback”. When the assets you trained or funded run loose and come back at you. This military action will solve nothing, and we aren’t getting accurate news or information anyway.
    If the “west” were really serious about stopping terrorism they’d have sent over scholars and educators but they’ll never do that.
    Anyway it’s my 2 cents that the Taliban or whoever was ‘allowed’ to complete this attack on 9/11. If the worst team in the NFL with the worst offense in the NFL suddenly showed up at the Superbowl and laid the smackdown on the best defense and won by 50 you’d cry fix wouldn’t you? Yeah, you would.
    Kman

32. – in my quest to try an express myself i couldn’t have said it better then how “indigosoul”just did- you go girl! And I totally agree that wil, in his wisdom to express himself did do just that express himself and he’s kind enough to let us speak our minds here- your kids are lucky to have a cool (step)dad like you.

33. Wil, and many of the others who posted comments,
    It is a fine line we tread. On the one side, none of us want to be involved in killing or in actions that might involve or defend killing another human being. Please note that this includes most servicemembers. (My husband included.)
    On the other side, we have been terribly hurt by actions against us. There are very few people in the US who hasn’t been affected in one way or another by the events.
    What choice do we honestly have, right at the moment? We were terribly angry and sad on 9-11. And we are terribly angry and sad, still. Some for different reasons than others. Still, what choice do we honestly have? Can you belay our President’s order to attack? Can you call back the fighters?
    As much as we may hate to do so, we have to put our trust in our leadership. They *DO* have our best interest at heart, inasmuch as they understand it. They *WANT* to do the best job they can. They *HAVE* to keep us safe.
    You may not like the current administration. Sometimes I don’t either. But they’re doing their best, during a horrible time, with an awful situation on their hands. I wouldn’t want to do that job, and I suspect there are few that would.

34. Wil, I don’t know if you are going to read this, and I really enjoy your website, but I have to say the following:
    You really didn’t think once the troops started going in to Afghanastan that people–maybe more people than died in the WTC attacks were going to die? It happens all the time in war and has thus far been unavoidable. Once the shooting starts attrocities are committed on both sides, even if one (usually the loser) is regarded as evil.
    Think of the One Noble War of this century–WWII, even there the allied troops committed atrocities against the innocent, similar to what was reported the have happened in Vietnam–rapes, murders, tortures–these things done by people who may have been our relatives–if we haven’t been there we can’t judge.
    Look at what the special forces of Canada did, just a few years after they were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. An entire unit was disbanded in Somalia for acts of “indiscretion”; of course they were reinstated again shortly afterward.
    That’s why the decision to send out the troops has to be carefully weighed on the part of the President. The consequences cannot be helped and for those of us who are not there, how can we judge what goes on?
    I actually do wrestle with this question on a fairly regular basis; especially since S11. What is right and what is wrong. In fact, the Western world is ultimately responsible for the unrest, poverty, and oppression that most of these middle eastern countries face today. We have supported the rich because they have the oil; we have supported those that were against the Communists even though they were Warlords; we have called the current enemy friend in the past…
    And the people that attacked the US in September did consider the innocent that died “collateral damage” from their point of view. That’s what the innocent were; they did not have the capability of simply attacking targets; they did it by any means necessary–that is what terrorists believe.
    And we were terrorists once as well. We did it to the Native American, we did it to the African-American, the rebels did it to the British during the Revolutionary War; unfortunately no Nation or People is innocent of this type of crime.
    Funnily, enough the TNG episode from season 3, “The High Ground” handled this as well as any fiction ever has–the philosophy of the terrorist. Of course, DS9 did it too; the character of Kira was a terrorist and had killed innocent people.
    Yes, it is a horrible atrocity that people were murdered in the US. The sad part is that many people around the world live with such crimes of terrorism every day; and of those people who suffer, many do blame the US and the Western World for crimes that have been committed decades and maybe centuries ago. Because it happened here in the US, we view as something unique and incredibly horrifying.
    The people where I live in Colombia say “my god, that many people? Horrific.” not “My god, a bomb.” as they live with such incidents on a smaller scale. Nearly every place I’ve worked in Latin American, it is difficult to meet someone who has NOT had a relative die by some kind of violence.
    The people of the US and Canada, my country, have really only learned in the big scheme of things that we are not immune to what the rest of the world suffers. This in no way to make light of the September 11 disaster.
    There is much grey between right and wrong and we must live with the decisions we make.
    SINCERELY,
    THE SCRIBE

35. I came to this party really late. There isn’t much more I can add that hasn’t already been said so far. But I do know this-we’ve had an attack on our soil and to do nothing invites others to continue assaulting our lives, our families. To do something puts us at risk of inflicting on others the very things we want to avoid.
    But think about how difficult it is to gather the correct information to deploy these missions correctly. We’re talking about a region where some people go by one name and there is no organized catalog, no wonderful database to figure out who is who and what is what. It’s amazing that any objectives have been achieved.
    As I was writing this, a few more posts came up, and I’ll end this by echoing Whisper’s comments. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be doing that job. And words, or even actions can’t express enough the thanks these people deserve for doing it.

36. To Chris:
    I feel an discussion that requires more room than this place coming on.
    Andrew,
    Ok, I’ll bite.
    Rebuttals mostly around.
    1. “Proect the U.S. from any further casulties.”
    To believe that we can do this is sheer naivete. At best, military action can stamp out the seeds of the current militants while sowing the seeds of the next generation. We can NEVER protect ourselves from future casualties solely on the basis of armamaments. That is, unless we bomb THE REST OF THE WORLD. In which case, our country would inevitably dissolve into warring factions.
    —–Reply—–
    Well damn, we better just throw in the towel and submit. Mr. President, hand over the football to Osama, he’s in charge now.
    Why is it naive to have the goal of protecting ourselves? That is stupid. I think it is naive to think that we could prevent any future attacks, of course, but that’s not what I said. It is our responsibility to protect ourselves, and do what we can to make sure our children don’t have to deal with these problems. The problem is here now and we should clean it up.
    I agree that the way we’re going about solving the problem isn’t the best way to do it, but there is no solution that doesn’t involve military action. You’re right, another generation of terrorists might be grown, and that’s if it’s done the wrong way. Are you suggesting that we nuke everybody in the country? Based on what I understand of the situation over there that would be wrong… which is why were going after JUST the Taliban. Sitting over here on our hands certainly isn’t the solution.
    I bet if I punched you in the face you’d punch me back. As you started to I’d say “No No, let’s talk about this”. Then after you agree to talk I’d hit you again. Eventually you’d have to make the decision to either get your ass kicked or kick mine.
    ——————-
    2. Ok, making a martyr of Bin Laden will satisfy our need for vengeance, but at what price?
    —–Reply—–
    A martyr? But I thought Islam was peaceful and the people in Afghanistan were *innocent* and simply repressed by the evil Taliban?
    If that’s truly the case then they should hate Bin Laden, and should love us for helping to get rid of him. Not only for getting rid of him but also for providing them with VAST amounts of aid in the form of food, money, clothes, etc. What do they have to complain about?
    ——————-
    3. “Liberate the innocents in Afghanistan and give them their country back. If these people truly are *innocent* then they should be damned thankful to have our help. The government that they empowered is responsible for all this.”
    Riiiiiight. If you think for one moment that any government we put back into power over there (ie, friendly to American interests) is “giving them their country back” you’re wrong. Any sane Afghan would want to obliterate us after what we’ve done to their country. They were bad enough off before. They’re worse now. Also, WE put the Taliban into power after we helped them shove out the Russians. Now that the dog has bitten two fingers off the hand that fed it, so to speak, we’re to replace it with another dog and expect the pack to be grateful?
    Apologies for the crudeness of the metaphors, all, I intend no white man’s burden here.
    —–Reply—–
    Any sane Afghan? Watch it Chris, your feathers are showing.
    Explain to me what it is that we’ve done that would make them want to obliterate us? If that truly is the case then as sad as it is genocide would be the only solution to the problem. That means it’s not a war against the Taliban and terror, it should be a declaration of war again Afghanistan. But that’s not the case. If it were then there wouldn’t be a Northern Alliance. Apparently you don’t understand how things are over there. The NA soldiers greatly outnumber the US/British soldiers. We are aiding them.
    The U.S. putting the Taliban into power? Really, how did we do that? We didn’t.
    You are not much of a history buff. Here’s a general outline.
    Since 1978 Afghanistan has been involved in a Civil War. From 1979 to 1989 the Soviets were involved. Around the same time in 1979 you also had the Iranian Revolution. In ’78 a communist political party called The People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA), which had influence within the military, overthrew and executed the country’s first president, who actually himself came into power through a coup that toppled Afghans long-time monarchy. This new government began to impliment communist-style policies on a nation with a islamic religious culture and history of resistance to any type of strong government control. Resistance began. The PDPA, from the beginning, recieved support from the Soviet Union in the form of military equipment and soviet advisors. The PDPA itself was actually divided into two rival parties who fought against each other for control of the government while simultaneously fighting the Islamic rebels. Talk about a mess.
    Islamic guerrillas in the mountainous harassed the Afghan army to the point where the new communist government turned to the Soviets for increasingly large amounts of aid. The Soviets decided to occupy Afghanistan in 1979 to maintain communist power, but were unsatisfied with the current leader. They invaded on the 24th of Christmas in ’79, during the night, and the current leader (Hafizullah Amin) was their first target. He was murdered and the Soviets put another leader, their personal puppet, into power. The new government, with the aid of about 110,000 Soviet troops, increased the resistance against the Islamic rebels. The Soviet invasion also brought the conflict into the realm of Cold War politics, as the United States, the United Kingdom, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and China, among others, funneled arms and other supplies to the Afghan Mujahadeen (holy warriors) who resisted the Soviets. Among our support included shoulder mounted surface-to-air missles. This weapon allowed them to take out Soviet helicopters, and ultimately allowed them to defeat the Soviets.
    The Soviet invasion, coupled with the revolution in neighboring Iran, also provoked a large response from the Islamic world to resist the Communists. The Islamic Republic of Iran, along with many other Muslim nations and groups, gave aid and sent volunteers to aid the Mujahadeen. Among these Islamic volunteer fighters was a Saudi millionaire named Osama bin Laden. bin Laden and the other Arab volunteers came to be known as “Afghan Arabs,” and they would later play significant roles in Islamic guerrilla wars in Algeria, Egypt, Bosnia, Tajikistan, Chechnya and in attacks on American and other Western targets.
    By 1988, the dragging war and internal changes in Soviet politics prompted Moscow to agree to the 1988 Geneva Accords, which led to the withdrawal of the Soviet army in February of 1989. By this time, nearly five million Afghans had fled to Iran or Pakistan and lived as refugees. The war in Afghanistan was over for the Russians, but not for the Afghans, who continued their civil war.
    The rebels then continued to fight in their own little groups until Kabul fell in 1992, and with it fell the PDPA. All the little rebel groups then fought against each other over who would rule Afghanistan. While the different rebel factions were united in their goal of ousting the Soviets and the Communist Kabul regime, they were quite different from one another. Groups represented distinct geographic regions of the country, while others represented ethnic or religious groups. The four main ethnic groups are the Pashtuns, from the south and west, and the Tajiks and Uzbeks who dominate in the north and east. Also, the Hazari minority accounts for most of the country’s Shiite Muslims. Pashtuns, Uzbeks and Tajiks are mostly Sunni Muslims. The Taliban began in the Pashtun area of Kandahar, while the forces of Rabanni and Massoud are primarily Tajik. Dostum is from the Uzbek region around the city of Mazar-i Sharif.
    Several rebel groups formed a governing coalition, called the Islamic Council of Mujahadeen and elected elected Rabanni as the Interim President of Afghanistan for a term of one year, beginning in 1992. He held onto the office until the Taliban seized Kabul in 1996. This council excluded the parties of the Islamic religious minority known as the Shiites, as well as the armed group called Hizb-i Islami, which was led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. During the Soviet war, the Hizb-i Islami was one of the factions supported by neighboring Pakistan and also received significant weaponry from the United States. Hekmatyar’s guerrilla career began even before the PDPA coup; his rebel group carried out attacks on the regime of President Daoud as well. Hekmatyar did not accept his exclusion from the new government and sporadically bombarded Kabul with artillery for nearly three years. January, 1994 found Hekmatyar forming an alliance with General Abdur Rashid Dostum in an attempt to overthrow President Burhanuddin Rabbani (who led the Jamiat-e Islami-e faction in the Soviet war) and his defense minister, Ahmad Shah Massoud.
    Dostum began his career as a “warlord” in command of the ethnic Uzbek Junbish militia in northern Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. He joined forces with Najibullah in 1985. By 1992, he had moved back to the Mujahadeen. In the fighting that followed, nearly 25,000 civilians died in Kabul. One-third of the city was destroyed. Hekmatyar’s forces were forced out of the Kabul area in 1995. While Hekmatyar was attacking from outside the city, other factions also battled each other. Two groups, the Hizb-i Wahdat and another Mujahadeen faction, the Ittihad-i Islami, engaged in urban warfare in Kabul which led to thousands of deaths and disappearances. By 1994-1995, the various armies and militias of the former Mujahadeen fought each other throughout the country and ruled their areas of control as if they were warlords. In effect, Afghanistan had no central government to speak of.
    In this realm of chaos, some former Mujahadeen found a leader in Mullah Mohammed Omar. A Mullah is an Islamic religious leader. A former Mujahadeen fighter who returned to his home village after the fall of the PDPA regime, this member of the Pashtun ethnic group led a new armed group called the Taliban. The word Taliban means “student,” and many of the original recruits to Omar’s movement were Islamic religious students. Other former Mujahadeen leaders of Pashtun background joined with the Taliban as this new group sought to impose law and order on the country. The particular law they sought to impose was an extreme version of Islamic law. Under Taliban-imposed law, women are not allowed to work outside the home or attend school. Men are expected to grow beards and attend religious services regularly. Television is banned, and religious minorities such as the Hindus, are required to wear some sort of identifying clothing. Also, in 2001, the Taliban ordered the destruction of all non-Islamic idols and statues in areas under their control. They also attracted the support of Osama bin Laden and his organization.
    In 1994, the Taliban attacked and defeated local warlords and began to gather a reputation for order and military success. Pakistan soon began supporting them, partially as a means of establishing a stable, friendly government in Kabul. The continual fighting between the former Mujahadeen armies caused waves of refugees to flood Pakistan’s border regions and interfered with Pakistani trade in the region. In late 1994, the Taliban took control of Kandahar, acquiring a large supply of modern weapons, including fighter aircraft, tanks and helicopters. In January of 1995, the Taliban approached Kabul, putting Hekmatyar’s forces in a vise between themselves and Massoud’s army in Kabul.
    From that point onward, until they seized Kabul in September, 1996, the Taliban fought against several other militias and warlords, eventually defeating them all. This is the current phase of the ongoing civil war. Massoud and Rabanni fled to the north with their forces to continue their war against the Taliban.
    In 1998, following the terrorist bombings of American embassies in Africa, the United States launched a cruise missile attack on training camps belonging to bin Laden’s Al-Qaida organization in Afghanistan. These were the Monica Missiles launched by Clinton…
    Through the Autumn of 2001, the Taliban continued to pressure the Northern Alliance, often with the aid of Osama bin Laden and his Arab forces. On September 9, 2001, the Northern Alliance leader Ahmad Shah Massoud was mortally wounded in an assassination attempt carried out by two Arab men posing as journalists. This attack is believed to be the work of bin Laden’s organization as a possible prelude to the airline hijackings and terrorism in the United States on September 11. The Northern Alliance responded to Massoud’s killing with an aerial attack on Kabul the night of September 11.
    On October 7, 2001 with the beginning of punishing aerial bombardments, missile attacks and special forces commando missions against the Taliban and bin Laden’s forces by the United States and the United Kingdom (the Allies). An informal alliance between the Northern Alliance and the Allies developed, with coordination between Allied air attacks and ground attacks by the Northern Alliance. These attacks led to the fall of Kabul on Nov. 13, 2001, as the Taliban retreated from most of northern Afghanistan. By November 25, 2001, the last Taliban/Al-Qaida stronghold in the north, Konduz, had fallen to the Northern Alliance. American and British special forces, numbering only in the HUNDREDS, are on the ground in Afghanistan to liaison with the Northern Alliance as well as to conduct raids, ambushes and reconnaissance in order to destroy the Taliban and Al-Qaida forces.
    Afghanistan was getting its ass kicked by Russia until we stepped in and gave them scud missiles. Had we not done that they’d be speaking Russian and we’d have a whole different problem on our hands. The Soviets killed millions of Afghans. We helping them. They continue to fight amongst themselves and we mind our own business until they hit us. Now we’ve picked a side, and are AIDING the Northern Alliance in defeating the Taliban.
    Explain to me why they should want to *obliterate* us for this?
    ——————-

37. “The media does not report at all on what people want to hear.”
    Of course we don’t. That would mean telling the truth, no matter how hard it was. And people don’t want to hear that, despite the cries for honesty. They want sensational headlines. Would you buy a paper if the cover story talked about the 4th grade school play (assuming you’re not the parent of a 4th grader in that play)? I know I wouldn’t, it’s not of any interest to me. I work for a TV news station, and we report on whatever will get us ratings, which creates ad $$, which in turn pays my bills. It’s a fact of business, not ethics, that we cover the “big” stories.
    And as for truth: If it were proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that Osama Bin Laden was NOT responsible for 9/11, and there was no real evidence to prove that anyone else was . . .would you really want to know? Or would you rather keep him as the guilty party because we’ve already made his face the “face of evil” for the free world? Could you honestly sit by and wait for the powers that be to track down the real culprit?
    The reason I ask this – Bin Laden was named the primary suspect before the towers even collapsed. No evidence gathered, nothing examined, no questions asked…no basis for such an accusation. Most people overlook that fact.
    Just food for thought.

38. ArtisticSpirit, lol (sorry), do please explain why my view isn’t well thought out. Lack of emotional sesitivity? Testosterone driven typical male?
    Hmm.
    Neither you or Wil understand why we are over there. Go watch the History Channel for about a month and come back to me.

39. wow… I don’t know if anyone will see this since it’s posted so late. but here goes…
    I’m divided. There are so many ways to look at it, we were wrong in the first place; they are just ingrates; our government could have done more; our government should have done less…. ad nauseam.
    It just goes on.
    So screw it. what’s done is done. no easy way to clean up the mess. NOT killing civillians at all is just impossible. The US HELPED make the mess and should accept some of the blame. but what’s done is done. All we can do is try to stop them before they stop us. Yeah, we’ve come down to an us OR them proposition… I vote for us. I’m by no means saying we should just do whatever the fuck we please, but rather we do what we have to do to reduce the immediate threat. Only after the threat has been diminished can we go about trying to clean up the mess providing, of course, that our government changes it’s foreign policies.
    (I don’t see that happening with the current administration, Geronimo George is just too bent on takin on them “tinhorn terrorists” and not on fixing what we helped break in the first place)
    Collateral damge… yeah it is pretty sad, but I have YET to hear of a truly viable alternative.

40. I hope that made some sense. I think i burned a fuse trying to put it into words.
    (arrgggh the lameness consumes me!)

41. Nikkalia, Bin Laden was not named the primary suspect without any evidence. Bin Laden had attacked us before, made threats to do similar things, etc… that is called evidence. Further investigation through intelligence means shows him to without a doubt be the guy.
    There is no possibility of his being innocent.

42. Don’t forget to go back to at least the first couple of decades of this century when the Western World interfered with these countries in the first place, thus bringing us to where we are today.
    If a country came into Canada and said, now we’ll stop your bickering and here’s how we’ll do it, I’d be upset a hundred years later; how about if I had just walked into the US during the Civil war and imposed my will on what should happen to the future of the country. These types of wounds take a long time to heal and can lead to extremist views.

43. Wil,
    I have some differing views than you do regarding this, but……………..
    there is no way to battle this war without the deaths of the innocent. Think of Vietman.
    I close my eyes sometimes and imagine that those Americans fighting for out lifestyle sometimes find it hard to distinguish between the Afgahn and the Al Queda member.
    BTW, the sonic wave thingies are but I did have a friend of mine who said it was all just balleyhoo.

44. Crickey, people. There is an awful lot of emotion tied up in this issue. I suppose that makes sense.
    This whole issue is fucked. Both sides have legitimate points (although both also have some misconceptions, too), and I think that’s worth mentioning.
    True, few people really really really wanted to hear the endless debates regarding President Clinton’s various affairs. I’d be one of them. Then again, people believe what they’re told, for the most part. Someone tells me that my professor smoked pot as a youngster, ten to one I’ll believe him. Doesn’t make it true.
    What I’m trying to say, the general rule stands: we believe what we are told.
    Collateral damage bites. I find this whole bombing-nonmilitary-targets in Afghanistan to be really nasty. Yes, we are going after an orginization that is all for the continued death of US civilians. That doesn’t make it any better.
    Retaliation is certainly an option in light of 9/11. Doesn’t make the destruction and death any more justified. Death is never easy, and we’re dishing it out as though there was a shortage elsewhere.
    If I hear one more goddamned “peacenik” slur… seriously, people, take that kind of thing elsewhere. This situation is not WWII, or Vietnam. It is its own situation.
    To all of you with loved ones in the Armed Forces – may nothing harmful happen to them.
    One thing that has always confused me – we have the largest peacetime army in the world. I can’t imagine that it’s for circumstances such as this; if it is, well, why don’t we just declare martial law, just in case we need it?
    Sorry, that’s something that’s been bugging me for a while, and I really don’t require an answer.
    That wasn’t as eloquent a post as I normally write. I somehow got sick. I need to go hide in a nice warm corner now, and sleep.
    “Funny, I don’t feel welcome.”
    – Guybrush Threepwood

45. I could care less about their civilians. Mainly because they are anything but civil. They celebrated our distruction. We warned them, we told them 10 years ago to leave us alone, to take their twisted cultist doctrine and pray all they want, but to leave us the hell alone. Wil, how did they respond? First, they bombed the trade center once. Reasoning? We side with Israel and the “evil” jews. But Clinton shrugs, gets a blow job and lets it go. Then they bomb some embassies, Reasoning? Were still helping the jews, and were not helping them. THEN they bomb our ships, reasoning? They never said this time though i’m sure it had something to do with us, jews and their cult. And finally we get a president in office who actually fights back, and then, they make the fatal error, of outright challengening the soveriegn power of the United States with a calculated and direct attack. They kill our civilians in the thousands. And only now do we fight back. We gave them ample time and warning to reform themselves and tyhier government and they failed, so we are doing it for them. Only now that we are doing what needs to be done, we get bleeding hearts asking “Shouldn’t the prisoners be prtected and treated well?” or “Shouldn’t we do better to not hurt their civilian population?”. Well shouldn’t they have not attacked us in the first place and it wouldn’t they wouldn’t have had to die? Screw them, screw those prisoners and most of all screw their sand pit and their false god. They deserve what they are getting, in fact i’m still of the opinion they deserve worse, we should have nuked the country off the map when we had the chance. You may think diplomacy and talk solves alot and peace is all good Wil, But the truth is, WAR solves problems, it does it quickly, efficently and usually with a very loud boom. Its dirty, loud and bloody. But it does solve the problem. But then again, Maybe yer right Wil, maybe we should talk, and while were in that little room talking they can blow all of our country and everything else straight to hell, then we can just throw a rag on our hand start chanting moobla-oobla and all will be well. What do ya think? My plan or Wil’s?

46. The problem is unfortunately, history has proven that you can’t fight terrorism; and the people of afghanastan are not terrorists for the most part. The want the US to help them correct the injustices done to them during the Cold War.
    If the US wants to fight the bad guys and help the good guys they better stay in that country for the long haul; and really help the people of a country which they contributed to condemning to poverty.
    And yes, this is an emotional issue for me–we were all directly affected somehow by the bombing.

47. re: viable alternative
    The Special Forces exist for a reason, as do the marines. For that matter, so does the UN and NATO, who have both publicly denounced terrorism.
    So tell me again why we had to drop lots and lots of bombs (over 10,000 based on the article Mr. Wheaton (SIR!) linked to) rather than taking the route that would better target the terrorists and inflict less damage upon Afghanistan and its people?

48. Lots of folks have made good points, both pro and con.
    However, I’m bothered by the fact that much of the arguments presented (including yours, Wil.. sorry. I love ya tho, really) are largely philosophical/theoretical ones and don’t directly address the unique situation we find ourselves in. It’s psychologically uncomfortable, but sometimes one simply has to engage in situational ethics, and decide on the lesser of two (or more) evils. Moral absolutism almost never applies to the real world. Also, rather than split this into a pacifist-aggressivist debate, or a liberal-conservative one, it’s important that we look at each individual issue we face here (and there are many) and put our general political views and ideaologies aside to look at it as objectively as possible.
    That said, there’s also another problem common to debates such as this, which is:
    What would *you* do?
    It’s easy to criticize the actions of others, especially when they have unpleasant outcomes, and are done by people it’s so easy to hate in the first place (Hey- President Pubes? Got Domestic Policy yet?) but far harder to decide exactly what you’d do if it were up to you.
    So, Wil, if you were Queen for a day, what changes would you make? And, just because I’m curious, feel free to meta that question out to cover more than the war issue, too. Be sure to back your ideas up with evidence that they’d work, too (and I know you will. You’re a bright lad 🙂 )
    Looking forward to seeing that entry.

49. Andrew Davis,
    Go ahead…play around being a war monger. I don’t need the history channel because I am not quickly eager to go forward to the past way of thinking like you and Presidant Bushy.

50. I carefully read indigosoul’s post again, then reread it a bit later and I’m astonished. When has our own government ever thanked it’s soldiers? Seems to me throughout history (and I am generalizing here), after each and every scrap the US gets into, it doesn’t own up to whatever might’ve happened to it’s own participants in said conflict after they come home. Half the time that’s when the suffering starts. It goes without saying it takes a helluva lot of courage to go into battle and fight for your beliefs and our freedom in general. If only your leaders beliefs were as noble as your own(soldier). Cause if you really felt so strongly you’d risk your own life, not someone elses, I don’t care if you’re Pres or not.
    I don’t think anyone was attacking a US Soldiers motivation or his duty. Then indigo goes on a tirade against US civilians because she thinks they aren’t thanking him enough. He’s a foot soldier, a tool, he is being used and he will never be thanked enough by anyone for it. Ever. Had the government that sent him there not interfered in the first place, then we wouldn’t, and he wouldn’t, be in this mess now. Hey, let me go back even farther…had the Soviet Gov’t not sent it’s young men into Afghanistan, then our gov’t wouldn’t have sent it’s young and brainwashed to counter anything…and he wouldn’t be in this mess.
    Let’s go back to the root of this and that is when Old Men in leadership positions brainwash there people, get em all riled up and send them off to fight. Then the receiving country counters with much of the same and there’s no end to it. Empires have risen and fallen with this crap and the US is an infant compared to most that have existed. We continue on this course of tit for tat and we are going down. All the bluster and technology in the world won’t save us because empires don’t always fall from outside forces, they mostly fall from within. Another 50 to 100 years and you’re gonna wish your grandkids lived in Norway.
    Anyway, if you made it through that ramble great, if not….tough cookies, it’s late and I’m tired.
    I’m quite certain the cosmos is rethinking it’s decision to wipe out dinasours and bring in humans. Live and learn.
    Kman

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