This makes me sick. Just plain sick. According to a report in the New York Times, hundreds, if not thousands of innocent, civilian Afghan citizens have died in US attacks, during the undeclared war on terror.
Now, let me be clear here, because my posts like this usually bring out the name-callers: I am horrified by, and I am still processing the reality of the terrible, terrible attacks on September 11th. I want very badly for the people who did it to be brought to justice, and pay for what they did, and I want to be sure that things like this don’t happen again.
But I don’t think that killing innocent people, identified as “collateral damage”, is right.
Consider this: the people in the WTC and Pentagon, and on those planes were completely innocent, right? Just people, going through their day. Maybe some of them had left a sleeping spouse, at home, or left their kid at school without a goodbye kiss.
The evil sub-humans who murdered thousands of innocent people didn’t have a quarrel with them, personally. Their quarrel is with the leadership and foreign policy of the United States, right? So, from their horribly twisted perspective, the people who died on 9/11: the mothers, sons, infants, fathers, daughters, husbands and wives, were just “collateral damage”, right?
NOTE (4:14 PM): Wrong. They were, as has been pointed out, intentional targets. After many notes and emails, I have really reconsidered my thought here: these people who died on 9/11 were intentional targets, murdered by terrorists, and not collateral damage, as I said. I was way, way, way off, and I’m putting foot into mouth. There is a huge difference between a bomb that goes astray, and the intentional targeting of civilians. I’m really glad that people have pointed out my glaring error, and, rather than pride fully insist that I am correct, it’s much more important to me to admit that I was wrong.
I guess that my point is that I don’t like this concept of “collateral damage”, regardless of whose side you’re on. I also don’t even like the term. It’s too antiseptic, and fails to convey the brutal reality. It should be called what it is: The Killing of Innocent Civilians.
Innocent people do not deserve to die, especially because of a conflict that isn’t between people, but between nations.
If I, or someone I loved had died on that day, I would not want an Afghan child to die in the pursuit of my, or my loved one’s killer.
It also really bothers me that everyone, from the man in the street, to the members of the media, to the leaders in our government, are calling this a war, when congress hasn’t declared war. I realize that this is probably pedantic to most people, but I think that the separation of powers is extremely important, and if the cause is just, the President should ask for, and receive from Congress, a declaration of war. Doesn’t this bother anyone else? I mean, of course it’s a war. But why hasn’t it been formally declared? And, while I’m at it, because I’m pretty sure the flames will begin to surge my way, shouldn’t the my government take a good, hard look at why the rest of the world hates us so much? I mean, let’s get the bad guys, absolutely, but shouldn’t we also take a good, honest, fearless look at our foreign policy, and ask ourselves if maybe we need to make some changes?
Let me clarify just a few other things, too: If you’re a serviceman or woman, I don’t have a problem with you, or the choice you’ve made to defend our country. It seems that every time I question the morality of a war, or the motives of our leadership, I get flooded with emails and comments from insulted members of the armed forces, and I’d like to head that off, if it’s at all possible. The same way that I don’t want to be blamed for a lousy episode of TNG, I don’t blame you for a war that I don’t agree with. I know, a thin comparison, but I think you get my point.
I realize that, in war, civilian deaths are inevitable, but that doesn’t mean that I have to like it, and I fear that there are people who will read this story, and it won’t bother them a bit that a mother lost a son in our pursuit of the terrorists.
Countless Iraqi civilians died during the Operation Desert Storm, simply because they were in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and I heard people proclaiming that they deserved it, because they were Iraqi, and therefore automatically supported Saddam. I think that’s insane.
So this started out as an indignant post about the deaths of civilians in Afghanistan, but it’s turned into some rambling thoughts on the deaths of innocents in any war…I bet I’d get a low grade if I turned this in as a paper, but it’s what’s on my mind today. So there.
I also realize that most Americans are still reeling over the events of 9/11, and I apologize in advance if my thoughts here offend anyone.
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PS to my previous post…
Before this turns into a “My candidate it better than your canidadate” argument, let me state that i’m just as happy as the next guy to have Clitnon-Gore out of the picture.
But i haven’t seen a puppet this good since Disney.
AAAARGH!! Such an emotive issue, nobody is completely right, nobody is completely wrong. (I know, I know, that dreaded fence again). I cannot condone killing because of religion. God, Allah, Buddha or whatever your inclination believes in the sanctity of human life, no matter who you are or what country you live in. It is people who decide the life is unimportant. Time to say (for me personally) I don’t have any answers, but we as all people must try to find a better way. We cannot keep on killing people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong!! It cannot be justified. EVER. Great rants everyone on this page. I LOVE this website!!
Tiana B.
Some things that bring questions to my mind…
President Bush keeps mentioning that the U.S. is at war but refuses to call the people they hold captive as prisoners of war but as detainees.
They are not given the same rights as prisoners of war. When I see the prisoners on CNN I ask myself what is the reason that the require two soldiers to hold them up when they are being moved about? What are they doing to them? Are they pumping them full of drugs or what? Why did the U.S. have to transport them all the way to Cuba? Do they think its easier to put them there as detainees so they can do what ever they have to to get information from them?
I’m amazed that so few Afghani have died in this action, whatever one calls it. I’m grateful for the modern technology of our military that lets them strike with precision, precision that does indeed minimize unintentional losses of non-combatants.
Yes, it’s operated by humans and humans make mistakes. Costly mistakes. But one has a choice: take the risk of making the mistakes, or leave a regime in power that supports terrorism, and leave a terrorist network alone so they can plan and execute more attrocities, killing far too many more thousands than those that perish due to human error.
That, of course, is what ultimately sucks: the decision over who must die, or at least risk death. Given the two huge pits now left in the southern tip of Manhatten, the liberation of a horribly oppressed people, and the success at interdiction of terrorism world wide, I would say that the right choice has been made.
I respect the fact that the deaths of innocent Afghani appalls you Wil. But remember too that, simply because a very great number of people love you dearly for this site and for your artistic endeavors, your voice carries a surprising amount of credibility and weight. Perhaps too it’s because of your incredible honesty and openess – you seem to me to be an A-1 patriotic American.
I’m sure that Jane Fonda thought along similar paths when she went to Vietnam. You haven’t remotely gone the road that led to the depths of her treason, but raging in paragraph after paragraph about how all this sucks won’t make the problem go away.
Rage and free speech go hand in hand. They are an energy and an instrument that should be used with the greatest of caution, especially by those whose credibility is the greatest with the most people. Simply put: You are not just some guy with a website! 🙂
In the end, though, it’s just us or the terrorists.
Blood will be shed on both sides, but the way things are going, more will be shed on theirs.
By the way – terrorism is not political. It is an act of aggression intended to affect political ends. I do not advocate response to terrorism as “revenge.” I advocate response to terrorism in kind. If Bin Laden wanted to debate for a better world order, his commentary would have been welcomed, even if it was as far out of whack as he seems to be. Freedom of speech is not an American invention. Instead, he chose to shed the blood of his enemy to make his point. It is only that form of communication in return that is even remotely appropriate. As for the Taliban – the friend of my enemy is my enemy as well. They stood with Bin Laden, even after 9/11, and as the ruling power in Afghanistan, that made Afghanistan a legitimate battleground. Sorry, but that’s the way war works, declared or otherwise.
Steve
Mandy, we shall agree to disagree for now then.
But I want to point out that your comments don’t all add up. You say that your intent was not to debate, but to express your opinion that I would be more convincing if I took on a softer tone. Am I right?
If that’s the case then why are we “agreeing to disagree”. Since you have not entered the debate, and as you put it “For all you know I could be wholeheartedly for it”, then what is there to agree or disagree on?
You are trying to remain neutral but you’re not.
You go on to make comments such as “leaps of logic” implying that I’m not thinking things out to the proper conclusion, your conclusion.
All the while you haven’t pointed out what you consider to be a “leap of logic”.
You also made very shallow attempts to discredit me because of some grammatical errors. This is another example of debating the person instead of the issue.
If you were truly honest in what you claimed to be your intent you would have left out about 3/4 of what you said.
So, yeah, you did it again 🙂
Also, the history lesson wasn’t a cut-and-paste. I did have to lookup a few details that I forgot, but I wrote the whole thing.
My husband Jeff said pretty much the same thing, that we should review our foreign policies. Granted our policies are not an excuse to kill 3000 innocent people.
I think a more fitting comparison would be the Oklahoma City bombing (you know, that large terrorist attack where the government didn’t pay out millions to the victims). McVeigh stated that the children in the daycare that he killed were “collateral damage.” He was villified for this statement, as well he should have been. Yet, it’s apparently okay when the US government does the same.
To Mike:
You: Since you seem so sure of the facts concerning Kyoto, we’ll skip that issue.
Me: Don
Wow…
Not much I could say about this that hasen’t been said already, but……
I won’t comment on the “right” or “wrong” of anything regarding this subject. It’s all been said 100 times, by each “side”, and all have said it better than I could have.
When I read Wil’s post, it reminded me of what Carl Sagan once said, and wrote about in his book, “Pale Blue Dot”. It’s been brought up before at other sites, but I thought it might be a little refreshing here to all of those that have strong opinions, whatever they are. Carl Sagan was commenting on the spacecraft “Voyager”, and the last photos that it took while it was leaving our solar system. It took a picture of the Earth, suspended in a mote of a sunbeam. I quote,
“Look again at that dot. That’s here. That’s home. That’s us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you have ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilizatoiin, every king and pesant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every “superstar”, every “supreme leader”, every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.”
“The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all of those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of the pixel on the scarcely disgtingishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how feverent their hatreds.”
“Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some priviledged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.”
“The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.”
“It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, in underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we’ve ever known.”
I am just one lonely astronomer quoting another one, and I am not sure if any of this will make a difference. It’s just another perspective from an inhabitant of this pale blue dot.
All spelling mistakes are mine, and not Carl Sagan’s.
Please don’t apologize for your thoughts. You are making people think (god forbid) and question their own thoughts and opinions. That is so healthy. Thank you.
Chris, I understand your position a lot better now. And you’re right, policies do have to change, as you described, because of technology. But regarding a less-confrontational tone I disagree. Ronald Reagan is the classic example. What would be the current state of affairs had he not been just as, if not more, agressive and confrontational than the Russians? In matters such as this you have to be just as tough, and willing to be just as mean and nasty as the people you’re dealing with. Otherwise you’ll lose.
You’re right that very often women are better for certain roles. Sales is another good example. Regarding your arbitration vs. litigation argument, that actually scares me. That sounds like someone is going to get bent over (you or me) because the woman lawyer didn’t want to fight it to the tooth and nail as it should be. See how it can go both ways? There are cases where that’s a good thing, and cases where it’s not.
And educating enemies? Yeah, that’s really going to screw things up. That’s like trying to explain to the bully why hitting you is a bad thing. LOL. Unless you can put him on the floor your lunch money will be gone that day, and maybe the next, and the next…
A world disarmament would be really stupid, and flat out will just never happen. But I don’t see how that’s a woman vs. man idea. Bush himself says he wants to reduce our nuclear arsenal to 1/3 of what it currently is… in an effort to sorta go towards exactly what you’re suggesting. It sounds like a great thing, but NEVER would someone like China or Russia go for it.
Actually there are lots of examples of African American leaders. In this country, and in their own country long before America existed.
I’m not speaking about us not ever having had a female president. With the number of horrible presidents we’ve had that would be a really bad test case. I’m talking about the entire history of the world. Why is it that throughout history men seem to be always running the show? The examples of female leaders are so few and far between that they aren’t hardly worth mentioning. And don’t tell me that it’s because they were “repressed”. If they were as you claim, and have the solution to all our problems, then they could have pulled themselves out of “bondage”.
Just look at corporate america. Who runs it? Guys do. Women have had just as much, if not more, opportunity to succeed in the business world. They are much more likely to get government handouts and loans for business startups, and on average have better education opportunities. Guys started all of the powerful companies I
It’s so good to hear so many thinking people expressing agreement that the value of human life extends farther than America’s borders. I’ve heard far too much from the opposing mentality.
While I agree that there is a massive difference between the intentional killing of innocent civilians, and the casualties of war who are killed simply because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, I find it still difficult to justify these deaths in any circumstances. How can we easily accept killing innocents, while on a mission seeking retribution for the death of other innocents? Seems rather self defeating to me.
An alternate angle of this issue has been discussed in depth on http://mentalanguish.net/archives/00000015.html , if anyone is interested in one person’s opinions (plug)
I’ve re-read my comments, and I can’t see how to make myself more clear, other than to suggest a more careful reading on your part as well, Andrew. However, the fact that my comments are so easily misinterpreted is the very reason I am trying (apparently unsuccessfully) to avoid the main debate.
Maybe I will add this: my original post was more directed at the Mad-Rid’s than at you. I included your name because I disagreed with *some* of the conclusions in your very numerous comments, and I found the enormously long history lesson funny. (So it wasn’t a cut-n-paste, my apologies; it must have taken you a very long time to type in, way to go!). So for originally including your name and offending you, I apologize as well. Can we leave it at that?
I’m done with this fruitless argument anyhow. I think I’ll go play Monkey Island instead. 🙂
Ack! Nevermind. I take it back, Andrew. I had been laughing off your offensive attitudes towards women, but your last one just took the cake. You no longer deserve my apologies, IMO. My laughter you still get though.
Man oh man, Wil, you are so FREAKIN smart….but, who DOESN’T want to see innocent people die? And look at me, here I am wanting the National Guard to tell me it’s my turn to go kill some people….oh man, I still have two freakin years until they even think about it!! I go to Basic Training in June and then AIT NEXT summer (because I’m still in HS) and then to school to learn to fly helicopters. Man oh man I want to catch Osama and turn him into a woman with no anesthetics and put him back in his country naked so all the men over there can beat him to death slowly and painfully like he deserves. And I would watch it and cheer and scream and wave flags. I’d make sure I got the final blow and I would make him look at the American Flag the whole time he was dying. *evil laugh* that whole scenario sounds pretty sick and twisted…but still nice!
DAMN….I meant to write who DOES want to see innocent people die…not who DOESN’T….
HAHAHAHA…..Andrew needs to move up a little bit into the 21st century. Soon enough there will be a woman president, even if it has to be me! And some day, a woman is going to come up with a better company than all of those damn computer companies that you are talking up just because a man made them. I go to school with someone like you. He has this weird inferiority complex to women. He said he is never ever going to join the military because he doesn’t want to have to salute me. Sounds like you two would get along well!!! You sound like you are still stuck in the past when attitudes like yours were tolerated. Now you’ll have women all over your ass if you are ever brave enough to say anything like that in public.
THANKS!
Will, your the best. I first saw you in “stand by me” and loved that movie and your character.I hadn’t heard about you in a while,then I found this website.And I must say you do a great job with it.It’s always interesting and I’m always checking it out!keep up the good work! BUT, I can’t believe what I read when you talk about the war and “innocent civilians”.I mean lets deal with reality!! in a war innocent people are going to die.war isn’t pretty,clean or perfect but it is what we have to do!! I mean if you want to sit around with richard gere and sing and cry with the other hollywood liberals go ahead but it’ll do no good.I thought you were different from the hollywood pack mentality of thinking,maybe you are.I’ll keep reading your site cuz it’s a cool site.BUT Wil, really think about what you are saying! you give no solutions,what should we do? that’s what I’m saying with you peaceniks, bitch and whine for the enemy and give no solutions,just don’t hurt the children. that’s a nice line don’t hurt the children I think clinton used it a few hundred times.clinton is the one who did nothing about bin laden,even after we knew he was behind the embassy bombings,and I suppose you probably backed clinton,right!! let’s get REAL!! later wil
I have a question for all of you people who are posting things like “why make Bin Laden a martyr?” and “don’t kill the innocent” and “how many more innocent people need to die” and all this other crap. How many of you are in the military? How many of you have ever BEEN in the military? How many of you know what it feels like to go to bed at night thinking “oh man, I just killed thousands of people that might not have been involved at all”? How many of you feel the guilt that these soldiers feel? How many of you were thousands and thousands of miles away, hell, in a different country, for Christmas without any of your family near you? How many of you have ever went to bed missing your husband or wife or children and knowing that you aren’t going to see them for MONTHS to come and that, it is very possible for you to die and not see them again? Just answer me these questions and then you have the right to bitch. No, I have not been overseas before but I am not whining about innocent people dying and Osama Bin Laden being made a martyr. But, I AM in the military (I was “ME” that posted earlier) and while I am not full time right now, as soon as I can get my ass out of high school I am going to go full time and go overseas and protect you whiny asses who like to sit at your computers and complain instead of, like “indigosoul” said earlier, get of your asses and go to the recruiters office and see how the other half lives!
hmm well, i was going to make a long post replying to certain things that were said but after reading Mandy’s posts I realized everything she said is exactly what i feel. I also wanted to comment that reading these comments I have noticed a few things…such as
the well educated smart people that can back up there opinions are:
artisic spirit
Mandy
KJB
christopher hearns
Chris
& others too, i can’t remeber everyone
and i dont mean to get juvenille but frankly, Mad-Rid, Andrew Davis, & Clay you are entitled to your opinons but personally i think the epitome of the ignorant american fuck. and I really hope for that for the future of the world that neither of you three ever produce any offspring, you are exactly the type of people i think needs to be sterilized.
okay thats all i have to say, so maybe im slightly hypocritical, oh well 🙂
^^amen^^
The Rebuttal Strikes Back
**I’m right and you were wrong.
Ok.. fark it… Its ground breaking because its a better plan than anything that’s on the table right now. And bless it all its about damn time we started moving away from fossil fuels. Bush and Co, hell, even Clinton and Co were pushing for electric vehicles. Umm where’s the electricity come from? Humm in current hybrid vehicles, it comes primarily from GAS or some other fossil fuel, and if its the type of vehicle you “plug in” every night, then it comes from a power plant, most likely burning coal. So yes, Kyoto IS ground breaking in a country that produces 25% of the worlds pollution from fossil fuels (look it up bub). Its about damn time we started moving on to something like hydrogen, who’s only byproduct is STEAM! (Applauds to Bush for even MENTIONING Fuel cells in his energy proposal). A person with character would see the bigger issue, not just their own perspective. This nation IS, whether we want it to be or not, the leader of the world. WE are the ones the world looks to for guidance in such policies. WE are the trend setters, WE are the policy makers, and WE above all have the ability to ENFORCE those policies. Why aren’t these other countries enforcing the treaty? Why should they when the big Uncle SAM gets to say “fark you, we’re looking out for number one”.
Yeah Andy… you totally owned me…
Copycat?? What the fudge?? Put the crack pipe down and step away dude!!
**were caused by, and started during, the Clinton Administration
Sarcasm aside, I’d honestly love to hear your views on this. As I said, It was far past time to get Clinton and Co out of office. The economy WAS indeed already going down when Clinton was going out, no question, though I can understand the initial hesitation by people to call it a recession. I don’t think it was bad enough at that point to call it a recession. Obviously the hardest hit to our economy the past year has been 9-11.
Now, look outside the US. Look at ALL the countries of the world. There’s not a country that’s not suffering, and I’d wager 90% of them are fairing a lot worse than we are. My point to this is that rather than helping these countries, the US (as of the Bush take over) has been more centralist, moving all of our interests (financially) to within our boarders. Why is this worth mentioning? Why is this important? Because, as much as the Anti-One world economy types would disagree, this is indeed a one-world economy.
(hypothetical) Japan takes a fall, the rest of the world goes with it, the domino effect in the works. Look back a few years ago when that computer factory in Japan (or was it Korea.. DOH) burned down. The computer industry alone took a massive hit for months worldwide. Now, lets look at the broader issue concerning this. Hunger. Famine. Drought and floods. China alone has lost over 1 million people this year from floods! The rest of the world is fairing no better. I’m not talking about 3rd world countries, I’m talking world leaders. Look at Russia, where they can barely keep bread on the grocery shelf because they are poor! Look at the luck the British have had the past couple years .. foot and mouth, etc. the list goes on. My point is that the US above any other nation has the power to lend a hand. And where has that hand been? reaching into it’s own pocket. Is Bush the sole one responsible, of course not! But he above all is the one CAPABLE of affecting change, and where has his focus been? If India falls into a depression, who’s it gonna hurt… India, probably not much else. If Japan, or another big country like it (god forbid the US) falls into depression, who’s it gonna hurt. The whole planet. Better to reinforce those legs than to let them drop out from under us, don’t you think?
**You must have been on the college program, because you didn’t learn a damned thing.
Who mentioned anything about college? What the fudge are you talking about? Avoiding the issue I presume in this case, tell me, what experience do you have with nuclear technology, whether it be the bomb itself or the technology to deliver it?
Opps none I see.. darn.
Sit down and come back to me when you grow up.
**The U.S. has never attempted to take over another country
ROFL
Tell that to all the Native Americans (post Revolutionary war) and the Mexicans (how do you think Uncle Willie got his house in California?)
Again, sit down.
**Granted the defense shield will not solve all problems at once; it will take care of a few of them.
Agreed, but again, not in the revolutionary way that Bush is trying to sell it on. Here’s why. A nuke has several properties to its detonation. (pay attention here… those college classes you referred to might help if your having trouble understanding– I can go into the physics of all this if you like.) They don’t explode on impact like a “regular” air dropped bomb. Instead they detonate on a timer. (by the way none of this is classified). There are 3 effects of a nuclear detonation.
1) Obliteration from heat and concessive force.. this is obvious any schmuck knows this. Fire a nuke wipe out a city, wash, rinse, repeat.
2) Radiation.. again, Duh… fire a nuke, watch survivors of the above mentioned city die within months or even days. People in the surrounding state (depending on weather conditions, size of the nuke, and the size of the area we are talking about) die from cancer within months to decades.
3) (I love this one) Every computer in a 3000 mile radius stops working… no danger of radiation, no physical damage to the cities… Its called (as most have heard in one movie or another) EMP. Detonate a nuke a few hundred miles above the surface (far out of the range of this missile shield Bush is so up in arms about) and you wipe out ALL communications in the US. Fun hu? and here’s the even better part. It only takes **ONE** nuke to do it!!
Where’s that missile shield now, Sparky? Yes. A “shield” against incoming nukes is beneficial, no question. Better to destroy them before they get here. But see, you neglected to pay attention to my follow up argument in my 2nd post…
“I can guarantee, if a nuclear attack were to occur in the US, it would be in the fashion that they’ve been sporting on the news recently. The “dirty bomb” which is to say, a “regular” bomb, but with nuclear material mixed in. Or, of course, the good ol, home grown, full fledged nuke built right here in the good ol US of A with materials you get fresh off the Home Depot/Radio Shack shelf. I dealt with nukes and the methods to detect their launch/ progression and detonation for years. This shield is a gag by the administration and a reflection of their lack of concern about their actions. Example. It takes a sub launched missile SIX minutes, from launch, to detonation. SIX MINUTES!! That’s enough time to call the president from Norad in Colorado and tell him to place his head between his legs … Right after he gets in his plane and fly’s off to Florida to read to some kids that is.”
One thing I forgot to mention in that, is that after the climax of the launch, the missile separates from the rocket. But see its not really a missile. It’s more like a 2 to 3 foot tall shell with a bomb inside it. That’s the nuke. That’s what Bush is talking about shooting down. A metal box, 2 feet wide and 3 feet tall free falling toward its target (yes, nukes free fall, whether they be plane dropped, sub launched or silo launched– my physics class starts at 9AM on the south campus). Now, with that in mind, think back to the Gulf war. The Patriot Missile is a early version of this shield he’s trying to sell to congress and Russia. As effective as it was, it’s not in the same ballpark as what we would need to make such a shield practical. No, Bush simply has a new toy to play with, and a new stick to wave in front of his enemies and would-be allies whom he wants to antagonize.
Problem though, in our benefit or against is for history to decide if we ever go down that path, is that our missiles are the most accurate of any on the planet (again, strictly talking nukes.) Great for us… BUT. That also means that if Korea does happen to fire a nuke (or hell CHINA even) our general direction, and if it does HAPPEN to get enough altitude to reach the US during its free fall, the bomb targeted on Uncle Willies house– hehe sorry Wil, I love ya and all but I couldn’t resist– may just wind up in Seattle. Don’t believe me? Join space command and find out for yourself. They better have a LOT of those missile batteries up soon or Seattle may be a glass bowl (the way Bush is talking that is).
Yes, Russia and China fund these rogue states. BUT, considering the finances of both countries right now and the fact that their own people are just a few steps shy of revolt due to hunger and what not (hell Korea and China itself can barely keep its people in line right now what with the floods and droughts that have hit different parts of their country this year alone!) we don’t have much to worry about from them. Saber rattling at best.
Your right, Russia and China don’t have anything to fear from us. But they have a lot to fear from Mother Nature if the weather doesn’t change soon (COUGH KYOTO).
Anyone can sell or prevent the sale of anything if the numbers are fudged right. But in either case, Global Warming is a problem and Kyoto WOULD be a starting point, world wide (minus 3rd world that is, and lets face it, how much pollution are 3rd world countries responsible for anyway?) Look at the middle east. Yes their standards are lower than ours, but look at their output. Upgrade (clean) what they have (and in areas where they don’t have anything, start using something other than fossil fuels! (Hydrogen) For every one factory in Iraq, Korea, or China you have 15 more in the US. Who needs to worry about it more? Us or them?
You’ve got to bear in mind with Kyoto, that the US is HUGE compared to most countries. Germany is barely the size of the state of Georgia!! France is not much larger, maybe the size of Texas. Of course they are going to fair easier!! But that’s where we, as the leader of the world, should be stepping in saying, this is now going to be the standard. Why aren’t we using hydrogen when we’ve had the means and the technology to disperse it safely for YEARS!!!
**The defense shield technology will allow us to protect ourselves against a large number of possibilities
Oh? like what? Do tell please? Nukes aside (I think I’ve shot that down sufficiently)
**The 9-11 attacks could have been a lot less catastrophic had we already had this technology.
We already have surface to air missiles capable of shooting down a jumbo jetliner. Where was it on 9-11? And how much better is this Missile shield going to fair against and Air Craft than a typical S-A Missile?
**this technology could have been used to take out the planes before they got anywhere near the pentagon or the trade center
Could-a would-a should-a, hind sight is 20 20. No we wouldn’t have shot them down pre 9-11, you’re right there. But again, we ALREADY have surface to air missiles capable of shooting down jetliners. Why do we need to scrap a treaty (severely pissing off more than just Russia, but most of our Allies in NATO AND THE UN) to develop a new one that does the same thing as what we already. You’re not going to win the Missile Shield argument.
**An attack wouldn’t come directly from Russia or China, but it could very well come from say North Korea, funded and supported by China.
Agreed… in about 10 years, when/if they can get their populace firmly under control again, those pesky floods and all driving people to revolt. Oh, and there’s the finances to build/ or even buy the missiles that actually have the range to hit us. Nope no points here. What college were we talking about?
**Land attack
(errrr) this is a tough one. If there was a land attack against us, it would start either in Canada/Alaska (not withstanding the historical Asian-European scenario), or Seattle. And let me point out that not even China has the resources to launch an assault of the magnitude it would take to make such an attack feasible, or worth while. I’m talking from sea based assault ships to air ships to paradrop. I’ll let you in on a not so secret secret. Our Sat based radar’s make up for our ground based radar’s limitations. So that whole thing about flying in “under their radar” simply does not exist in this country or any other. Period. We’d see them 2000 miles away and they’d be shot out of the sky’s (paradrop scenario). Sea assault, China and Russia together MIGHT have enough ships to get enough troops on our soil to do some hefty damage, no doubt, but alone, neither one could even finance such a feat. The people in Russia’s Space Administration get paid 1000 a YEAR compared to our 60,000 (MINIMUM). You think they can finance the kind of assault your talking about? And then there’s the whole “take time to build up the forces for the assault”. Remember how long it took US to launch our attack against Iraq?
**The border needs to be locked down
The missile shield comes into this where?? Oh, by the way, you’re NATIVE American, right?
Jordan fades back, SWOOSH!
**Small Pox
http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/11/28/smallpox.vaccine/index.html
Why prepare for it if only US and our ALLIES (USA and RUSSIA are the ONLY 2 countries to maintain Smallpox) have it. What does that say about our administration– are “we” planning to use it on ourselves (the virus that is)? Why would Russia use it on us? Better yet, Why would they SELL IT to people they KNOW are going to use it on us??? DOH!
**Could it possibly be that your beef is having to work and earn what others have?
One word. ENRON
**Al Gore than was born with a silver spoon in his mouth
(wanted to avoid the My candidate- your candidate thing but here goes) Umm where do you think Georgie got his money to buy the baseball team?… or his Oil Company? Jordan going from downtown! (By the way, I didn’t vote for Gore either, as I’ve been saying, it was high time we got the Clinton regime out of there).
**Corporate America is cutthroat, companies are forced to get as much as they can from as little as possible
One word. ENRON
**You say that a lot of Bush’s cabinet members had business dealings with him in the past. So what?
One word. ENRON
**If you don’t understand why Iraq is on the radar then you are completely out of it
No contest why Iraq or any of the other nations are on the hit list. My point is, you don’t go picking a fight with half the neighborhood when you are recovering from a broken arm. We did a bang up job in Afghanistan removing the taliban. Great. Let’s not piss off our allies any more than they already have been the past year.
Strong arming– Kyoto.. Blair himself was flabbergasted when Bush said no. Who in the world supports us better than Brittan??? Never mind Japans response! And then we’ve got the Missile shield thing with Putin (or what ever his name is). 2 black eyes to 2 of our closest supporters over seas.
We are the international leader! WE set the standards by which every other country aspires to! We expect it of our troops, reaching higher standards, meeting higher goals. So why is our president going and almost literally picking fights?
You want to know the reason for 9-11, why we were earlier talking about the “collateral damage” in Afghanistan, look at 2 places. The crazy man in the turban, and the crazy man in the White House.
Oh, and on a side note, Allison, God Bless you 🙂
Jamie, a conversation with a few Vietnam vets wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for you. Military organizations the world over love young men like you because you’re too young and dumb to think for yourself. Actually I take that back. You do actually think but the thoughts are limited due to your young age and experience It’s quite simple to wind you up and send you off.
A man, not a country attacked us.
Kman
I find it pretty ironical to hear somebody here say that the USA have “independant press” as compared to Afghanistan.
Censorship and control might not be obvious, but here (Switzerland, a country no more free than any other) we regularly comment on how biased and indoctrinating american press is (specially regarding the afghanistan issues).
I’d love to find the source I got this from, but I do recall hearing about how american journalists in Afghanistan were censored and frustrated that they could not write about what was *really* happening over there.
Andrew Davis:
You have quoted one groups opinion on Kyoto and the environment. I am a geochemist I have looked at many of the arguments. I agree that “global warming” (I personaly hate that term) has not been conclusively proven but it has not been disproven either. Most of the evidence points towards global warming as happening and that it is caused by human actions. Whether I am right or you are right would you rather wait until we are sure (and by that time we’re probably screwed) or do something that my be difficult but might save us in the future. It seems that you have no difficulty acting now even if it costs a lot of money (re: war on terrorism) so why do you procrastinate with the environment. More people (even Americans) will die if “global warming” is right.
You know, someone posted an article on a Star Trek MUSH, and here I am :). Odd, that.
In any case, I agree with your statements here. I do have one clarification to make which, if it has already been mentioned here, I apologize for the repetition. You can bet anything you like, and I would support you, that Congress would declare war in a heartbeat — if we had a target. We are not fighting a single government, that’s the problem. Traditional wars have been against either other governments or rebels/et. al within your own.
Thought I’d mention that :).
Ta ta, great site!
— CB
Aren’t the Taliban and Al Quida targrets enough for the US congress to declare it a formal war back when 9/11 happened? Lets all look up the definition of war in the dictionary. The US isn’t dropping bombs and settle some troops in just to visit and say “hello…you have a nice country…lets do lunch.”
Mike Wiffen, it’s not a matter of whether global warming exists or not. The Kyoto treaty wasn’t going to do anything to solve that problem, it has nothing to do with “helping the environment”. The treaty gives the U.N. power over us with regard to energy. It gives them the power to force us to use less energy. We would essentially be handing over our economy… the Bush admin is coming up with a bill to address the “global warming” issue, and it doesn’t involve giving the U.N., or anybody else, power over us.
With regard to “global warming”, there is no real evidence to support it, which is why those 18,000 scientists banded together. The other day I was surfing around an came across TLC or Discovery and some guy was talking about a trip to Mars. He explains how the problem is that Mars is too cold, yada, yada, and that what we should do is heat up the planet. He then asked “How do we do that?”, and he then aswers by saying “We do the same thing we’re doing here, pollute the environment”. He says we should send over some “pollution makers”, basically just big damned engines that crank out smoke, and that this will heat up the planet. LOL. I then surfed to another channel and saw a guy taking ice samples in Antartica. According to him, through looking at the “history of the earth” using the ice samples he predicts that we’re heading towards another ice age. Using the ice samples he can supposedly get everything from temperature to air composition readings from any time in our history, using these ice samples. Here is a classic example of two “scientists” saying the exact opposite.
Also, Mike, just so you don’t fee left out, I’ll respond to your, lol, post later. Gotta work for now.
Jamie, you are catching the tail end of a conversation and letting your personal inferiority complex get in the way. My attitude is not what you’re thinking it is.
I do not look down on women, I’ve run into lots of really smart women that are just as good as any guy in their profession. The debate is over the statement “The world would be a better place if women were in charge of everything”. That’s what I’m arguing against.
I’ve got a friend called Christna who is Goth but I’m not but it does’nt realy bother me.The point is all she talks about is Bin laden and how she is going to marry him which pisses me off
Andrew
We may well be wrong about global warming, if we are then what is the worst that can happen? We save a few fuel bills. A lot of industry becomes more efficent and saves money. If we are right whats the effect of ingnoring the problem? Floods, draught, storms, rising seas, ice caps melting. These things are already happening so the odds are…? If are worried what the Kayoto agreement will do to your economy think what a flood of the mississipy river every year will do. It is the way that America deals with these issues that points to why large parts of the world hates it.
Think not what the world can do for you but what you can do for the world.
Thank you, Jamie for pointing out the obvious about Andrew’s rant. I don’t think that anti-female sentiment is very fitting or even appropriate to the topic under discussion. I don’t need to watch a whole gender being slammed – guess I will leave this discussion to others here and wait and see what the next topic will be.
Leno,
You are missing my whole poing. First let me say that I believe in not fixing something unless it’s broken. There flat out isn’t any real evidence that supports the global warming theory, at all. I do a lot of work in the energy industry, I know what all the arguments are.
My father is actually a Mechanical Engineer from Texas A&M. In doing a lot of his graduate work he conducted a lot of tests at A&M’s Energy Systems Laboratory, which is one of the worlds leading centers for research in this area. I’ve gotten the skinny from him, and professors at the university, these people are THE experts in this field. The global warming theory doesn’t even have enough weight to be called a theory, it’s a lie.
Regardless I’m ALL for saving energy and using less fuel. Actully, I have worked on a lot of software that helps people save money and reduce their fuel consumption whether it be electricity, nat gas, or whatever. I’m all about energy efficiency.
Power is the lifeblood of everything we do in this country. Forcing companies to reduce their power consumption is a very serious thing, you’re getting into VERY sensitive ground that effects a lot of people. You think our economy is bad now, lol, see what it’s like when the government starts telling companies to use x% less power.
Is it worth risking all that on the off chance that this evidence-less *theory* might be right? Maybe we should all stop drinking soads because cafeeine might cause cancer? There is no evidence.
And the best part is that Kyoto has nothing to do with helping the environment. It is about money and power, that is all. Actually if you look into the heart of any of these environmental groups you’ll find the same thing. Sure there are a few real nutty tree huggers here and there, but the meat of the organizations are run by people like Al Gore. They are nothing more than politicians. Instead of getting a real job and producing something they become an environmentalist, and have their way paid for by corporate america and our tax dollars. Companies get tax benefits from giving to environmental causes, and at the same time get P.R. befits by advertising that they support the environment. It’s a big scam job from beginning to end, all cleverly designed to separate the hard workers from their money. But Kyoto itself goes a step further than that, it actually gives the U.N. and rogue nations a say in how much power we are allowed to use, giving them control of the pupet strings tied to our economy. That is just plain stupid. Even the countries that were dumb enough to ratify the treaty haven’t taken the next step of enforcing it, which is the part that supposed to *help* the environment.
Even with all that in mind the Bush Administration is STILL creating a bill to help reduce energy use in the U.S.A. But the control will be in our hands, not that of forein nations. So you are still getting the contingency plan that you’re after.
Knowing what I know about the arguments I personally would just give the bird to the environmental crowd… but Bush is still being “open” to their theory and doing something about it.
booger – what about the tens of thousands who have died from our very deliberate bombing of a sudanese pharmacutical plant? im sure similar things are happening now just as they did with kosovo. if you want to believe that we dont purposefuly target civilians go ahead, but its pretty naive.
I’m NOT saying this to say what they did to u.s. civillians was any less horrible or wrong…just that our country is no more innocent than any other.
Hey Wil,
This is the first time I’m posting anything on your site, but it’s something I’m rather passionate about. I’m Canadian, so anyone who disagrees can use that against me 😉
I agree with you 100%. The thing that bothers me most, however…is thinking about what it’s like from the perspective of a father who loses his wife and children to ‘collateral damage’ and who he’s going to blame for his family being dead…and what that can lead to, because it seems to me that that’s how terrorism gets it’s ‘soldiers’
Do you think that the peaceful Afghan shop keeper gives a damn about the US’s war on Terrorism as he grieves his family? No, he’s just going to know that the US bombed his country and killed his family.
It’s almost like a no-win situation…
Anyway, just wanted to share that, and to say that I’m a big fan of yours Wil, and the site. I always liked ya on TNG 🙂
Jay
Rachel, it’s really silly to compare our war against terrorism to the Monica Missiles. The example you presented a great one, and I agree with you, but it has no place in the current discussion.
Andrew Davis
The ice cores your talking about are a total of a few centimeters covering about a century. They give a rough idea at best. The theory that we are going into another ice age is that if we follow the past progression of ice ages we should be in one soon. However the temperatures seem to be rising not falling as would probably be necessary for an ice age to form. (There is a theory that glaciation can be caused by increasing temperature but it is deemed HIGHLY unlikely). How can you say there is no evidence. I live in Canada 20 years ago we would be lucky to get 20 days above freezing between the beginning of Jan and the end of Feb. This year we have been above freezing more than below and we’re only in the middle of Feb. I think observation is valid evidence.
The fact that the White House claims to be working on something does not mean they actually will do something. Politicians will tell people what they want to hear even if they have no intention of doing this. This is true of all politicians, not just american. Don’t just listen and accept, everyone must listen, think, criticize and accept or reject.
Wil I do not think you understand what your talking about in the larger sense of warfare and world politics. As someone who has fought and killed enemies of the Republic let me put it in some perspective for you.
When you send members of the armed forces out on the world you do it knowing fully well that we are the last line of reasoning without of course useing nuclear weapons. The reasons you stated above are honest ideals of someone who never had to kill someone or be killed. Taken to the exteme the united states would be nothing more then a nation like france. A nation that has a bark yet no bite because it does not want to endanger its pretty buildings.
War is hell for good reasons. It means killing those by accident who just got in the way of the bullets. While you talked about the war in the middle east I have a better example for you. Nazi Germany elected Adolf Hitler with 33% of the german people voting for him. Did those 66% or even that 33% deserve to die by american or english bombs falling on their houses while holding their children? Did they deserve to die because they lived too close to a factory that made weapons of war? No however what would have the world looked like without us getting involved? A new germany that included all of europe and most of russia? How many more jews would have hitler killed? Who would have been next on his list? Catholics? Muslems? People with green eyes? The united states and europe let hitler take small european nations one after another while the larger nations prayed he would be happy with them. Democrats and Republicans in the house and senate BOTH did not want to get involved even when most of europe was at war. How many more millions of innocent people would have been saved if we got involved when hitler made his first move?
Osama Bin Ladin wants to create a united arab middle east like hitler wanted to create a united europe under his heel. We ignored the problem for far too long and should have acted sooner. People might scoff at him but we also scoffed at hitler when he first took over a divided poor nation and look what he did. Bin Ladin will use any excuse to finish his goals. Israel, Starving children in Iraq or anything that will help him reach his goal of a pure islamic state.
Those people did not deserve to die but how many more would have died in soccer arenas across the middle east if we did not act? Most of the time life is a choice between the worst of two evils. The only people who do not think so are insulated from the harsh realities of life.
Pure naked violence has solved more of the worlds problems then talking ever has and it is moral to use violence when the time is right and that time is now.
Jamie, you signed up. You knew what you were getting into. Other people on this page are not in or joining the armed forces. You take on the responsibility when you sign up. Don’t lecture me about how I feel, or tell me that my feelings are wrong because you don’t agree. I have an opinion and I WILL express my absolute horror at merciless slaughter. You call it what you will, I’ll call it what I will. Agree to disagree, but don’t disrespect my thoughts cuz they differ.
Tiana
Andrew
**You think our economy is bad now, lol, see what it’s like when the government starts telling companies to use x% less power.
Why aren’t we there now? You mentioned that Kyoto would (in 2010) only reduce emissions a sum of 30%.
ALREADY produces more than any other country in the world. That includes RUSSIA, CHINA, BRITTAIN, hell virtually the entire EU combind produces less pollution than we do! We produce 1/4 of all pollution world wide! So 30% is HUGE! And recall that bit i mentioned about German -the size of Georgia, France the size of Texas, the whole of Brittian only the size of Florida?? Well of course they have less to worry about. As you say.. “DUH”
You’re right, the UN shouldn’t have to step in to guide us on this. WE SHOULD BE GUIDING THE UN!!! WE SHOULD ALREADY BE SETTING THIS STANDARD!! But no… better to let Enron execs keep funneling money into thier pockets than to give them an incentive to come up with new, CLEAN energy.
I’ll tell you flat out, who ever convinced you that Global Warming was a “lie” is on crack, and so are you quite frankly. But lets put that aside for the moment. Lets look at the kids in school (elementry, middle and high) that have to stand outside waiting on their buses, which are spouting out ungodly ammounts of noxious gas right in front of them. How many teachers, with those kids outside making sure everyone catches their bus, are getting sick because of this. Do you have kids in school? Well, i dont have kids, but my youger brothers are 13 and 10. I dont want them around that. How bout you Wil? Anyone? Ask your kids teachers how they feel about having to stand out there with those buses engines running. I remember, back in the day, when i was in middle school hearing this teacher or that complain about it. Theres more kids going to school now, meaning even more buses than when i went. The school i went to graduated 400 the year i left. They graduated almost 1000 this past year… And this is not the inner city. This is the OPEN AND DEVELOPING SUBURB!
Its not just a matter of saving energy, its a matter of finding new sources. I’m not talking about drilling for more oil. One day the oil, coal, natural gas will all run out, Global Warming or not. And your definately right that power is the life blood of this clountry. So doesnt it make sense to find new sources of power before our current ones run out? Bush (and you apparently) want to spout that we need to rely less on foreign oil, HERE HERE! but why do we rely on oil, coal, natural gas, or anything else that pollutes at all!! We have the technology, the resources and the money to use other means!!! But noooooo its better to keep my 10 and 13 year old brothers coughing while getting out of school and puttin money into the pockets of Bush life longs friends in the Oil industry.
ENRON ENRON ENRON.
Anyone see the comments from the congress member prosiding over the investigation? “Skilling came in and actually talked to us, he didn’t take the 5th, but as soon as he started talking he lost all credibility.”
I quote this for a reason. I watched the congress members questioning Skilling. The man was laughable at best. A CEO who knew nothing, essentally, about his company. And this man described HIMSELF and a “HANDS ON CONTROL FREAK”!
And lets look at some of the other VIPS… people putting in $10,000 to buy stocks in these bogus side companies they created (Jedi?? Obi Industries?? Tons more!) and getting a return of 1 MILLION within 3 months!!! And the little guy, the lowly pee on employee, getting thier life savings lost in the flames (flash back to your “Corprate America is cut throat” and, more recently your “It’s a big scam job from beginning to end, all cleverly designed to separate the hard workers from their money” comment). THIS IS FACT!! THIS IS WHAT ENRON DID!! THIS my friends is Corporate America, and EXACTLY what BUSH stands for.
How does Kyoto give the UN and “rogue nations” power over us? The same way that any other treaty does. By this I mean that if we break a treaty, or exit without following the terms, then we can have sanctions against us. This is the reason Bush cannot just build his missile definse. He must abide by the stipulations of the agreement or face sanctions from the UN. This is a part of ANY treaty, NOT JUST KYOTO!! So again, you get no points here. The puppet strigs you refer to come into play ONLY if we do not meet the terms of the agreement, or exit it. Korea can not stand up and say “This year you can only produce X% of these gases”. No my friend, my dear mislead Andrew. What it means is that if the US fails to meet the terms of the agreement THEN Korea can stand up and say “you failed to meet this agreement, we suggest you straigten up or we place an 10% higher tax on your exports.” See Andrew, the comments your making about giving power over our nation to others is completely bogus. Its a scare tactic used well by many a politician. Heh, look and what they did with Medicare (even if the program is farked beyond reason.)
I dont consider Bush’s plan better mainly because instead od FOCUSING on exploring alternative energies, its promoting (more) the building and drilling of new oil sites. No, its pretty obvious where Bushs intentions are here.
By the way, as a general statement to all. Does anyone remember when i think it was CNN or FOX or maybe even CNBC were broadcasting it as not “Americas war on Terror” but instead “America Strikes Back”. (FLASH — Empire Strikes Back)
Americas policies are not only the cause but at the very center of why this attack occured. Go back and re-read what Mark said (Posted by: Mark on February 9, 2002 04:45 PM)
Have you been over seas Andy? I have. Theres a reason the US is hated.
And educating enemies? Yeah, that’s really going to screw things up. That’s like trying to explain to the bully why hitting you is a bad thing. LOL.
Andrew:
You: Unless you can put him on the floor your lunch money will be gone that day, and maybe the next, and the next…
Sure, so you kick his ass, and THEN you educate him. What would you say the proportion is of well-educated men who resort to physical violence compared to those with little or no education?
You: A world disarmament would be really stupid, and flat out will just never happen.
Of course it’s not going to happen any time soo, but why would it be really stupid?
You: And don’t tell me that it’s because they were “repressed”. If they were as you claim, and have the solution to all our problems…
Ok, the reason is that men and women have evolved differently. Men are the more aggressive, hunter, protector members of the tribe, whereas women are the social uniters. My point is that NOW that the consequences of division are POTENTIALLY so catastrophic, more power might be better concentrated in the hands of the social uniters, rather than the aggressors.
And it really confuses me why some women get all threatened at any sort of gender conversations. Men and women are DIFFERENT. They are not THE SAME. It is not a question of EQUALITY. Their basic human rights should be equal (of course!) but othewise, to think they are the same is naive and is a disservice to both sexes.
It is insensitive and wrong to the families of victims of Sept 11th to question the US lead mission to rid the world of terrorism. More people died on Sept 11th than at Pearl Harbour in World War 2. How many more attacks like this does it take for you assholes to get your head out of your asses and actually fucking do something to stop it, and bring those responsible to justice. These whack jobs like Bin Laden, wouldn’t think twice about slitting your throat. They want and have sought after Nuclear, & Biological weapons. If they had them, they would use them to nuke and spread anthrax all over your ass. The reason you feel safe now and bitch about trivial bullshit is because people like balls like the President are actually fucking do something to stop, prevent, and eradicate this terrorism. Yeah innocent civilians are dying and thats not right. We aren’t targeting innocent civilians like the terrorists did. And let’s not forget or blow off the people that died on September 11th. The President has a high approval rating now due to this campaign, and i’m glad that most level headed americans think so and don’t agree with you uncompassionate shitheads.
ok, there’s a few people I need to respond to.
KMAN – 1: I am NOT a male! I am a 17 year old female. However, thank you for giving me your opinion. But, it wasn’t really relavent. You don’t know me. If you did, you’d know that I am a very intelligent person. If you’ve ever taken the ASVAB you’d know that a QT score of 108 is excellent which is what I got. Not bragging just letting you know that you have NO clue what you are talking about telling me I am not smart or whatever the hell you said. I joined the Army of my own accord, not just because people told me I should so they could “wind me up and send me off” as you say. Also, I’m smart enough not to complain how this country is being run without trying to do something about it!
Next order of business.
ANDREW – Sorry about the out of place comment. However, it still fits with the pompous attitude you had in your post. Or seemed to have I should say.
And last but surely not least….
TIANA – It’s people like me that take on the responsibility to go over and defend your right to state your erroneous views. Besides, I wasn’t lecturing and I wasn’t complaining about joining the military. I was telling the people who are whining about “merciless slaughter” that it isn’t merciless slaughter or collateral damage or what have you, it’s not like it’s done on purpose. When our troops kill people, they pay for it dearly. Whether it be emotionally or what.
Anyway, you are right, you ARE entitled to your opinions, as am I. So, you shouldn’t be lecturing ME about having MY opinions. Thanks anyway!
Well, given the obvious love in the above post….
I fear I’m going to have to drop a dose of rationality into the discussion.
Agreed. Something needs to be done about Bin Ladin and al’Qaida, and every other terrorist group out there.
But not because of September 11th.
September 11th is only the wake-up call to the years of neglect by the american government (and the West Europeans, incidentally–they’ve had their share of terrorist attacks, as well). September 11th is not a reason to inflict genocide upon all Arabs and Asians. September 11th is most certainly not just cause to start bombing the snot out of thousands of Afghans or Iraqis or ANY national group.
The terrorists in al’Qaida, for example, come from a number of nations. In every one of those countries, they are a miniscule minority–a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent. Why?
Obviously, because despite the widespread dislike for america and americans, the vast majority of people throughout the world are not willing to join battle against america. Call it laziness, call it fear, call it common sense–despite the reasoning behind it, the fact remains that even before September 11th and the american response afterward, al’Qaida and other anti-american terrorist groups had very little popular support.
“But they killed lots of americans!” you scream. “They must DIE!” “To even question the government after such a tragedy is unpatriotic, is unfair to the memories of the dead and their families, and is just plain WRONG!”
Right. Sure. Whatever you say, because the louder you scream, the more right you *must* be. That’s how it works!
Common sense has nothing to do with it. Ignore that the more civilians are injured by american bombs, the more popular support anti-american terrorist groups will receive. Ignore that the likelihood of killing a civilian in a bombing is many times that of actually killing a terrorist.
Yeah. Right.
Incidentally, Re: anthrax, biological weapons, etc…. It has recently been reported that the strain of anthrax used in the american terrorist attacks was from an american military facility. Guess this one can’t be pinned on foreign terrorists.
And since we’ve obviously got a stockpile of biological weapons to complement our nuclear stockpile, how much better than the terrorists are we?
Jamie,
In defense of KMAN, I don’t believe he was slighting your intelligence. When you’re young and inexperienced in the way the world works (by no means a bad thing!), it’s easy to be manipulated. You remember when you were really you and your mom told you not to make that face because your face might freeze that way? You didn’t know it wouldn’t, so she used that to make you do what she wanted. The same is true when you’re young and idealistic about the way the world works. People will try to take advantage of that, Uncle Sam included. It doesn’t mean that you’re stupid (believe me, plenty of geniuses have less than your normal dose of common sense), just not prepared to doubt enough the motivations of others.
Well said Chris. I wasn’t going to respond…after all, what can you really say to someone who’ll quote a score on some test as proof of their intelligence? That score will mean exactly DICK when the first few bullets go whizzing by her head.
Jamie, there’s a good chance we’ll see you on 60 Minutes a few years down the road blaming Uncle Sam for misleading you and not owning up to whatever health problems you’ve developed after fighting on his behalf, more than likely not to defend this country but further our monetary interest around the world. On 9/11 the folks that could’ve really defended this country in it’s time of need worked at airport security. Care to take that exam?
Female or male you STILL need to seek out some vets, WWII on up and sit in front of them and say, “Tell me what you know” and then SHUT UP and LISTEN.
K
Wow, ok, I have a lot of people to respond to.
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First, Jamie. I really liked your last post, props. Preach on! I think both of us misunderstood each other. I think if this were a face to face we’d get along great. Maybe we’ll run into each other some day in the service, keep the faith strong.
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Second, to all the ticked off women that are trying to tag me as some kind of woman beater. This discussion was originally about civilian casulties, but it has since spun off into several different discussions. If you read back you’ll find that Chris and I had a huge disagreement, but then after further discussion came to an agreement. It’s hard to tell if it was a 100% agreement, but we certainly both ended up in common ground.
After reaching this agreement he made the statement that “We’d all be better of if women ran everything”. Now unless you’re brain dead that is a gender biased statement against men. I totally disagree with it. In countering that argument I have to run on women a little, that’s just the way arguments work. He’s running on guys (is Chris a girl?), so I have to push back in the opposite direction.
By simply reading a snip of some of the things I’ve said it’s very easy for someone to get the impression that I’m anti-women, and that I think their place is in the kitchen. That is 100% false.
However there are large differences between men and women, nobody can deny this. Some of you out there may not like this, for whatever reason, but that’s just the way things are. This does not mean that one is better than the other, just that they’re different. There are some things that women do better than men, and other things that men do better than women.
In my 19 years of existence I certainly haven’t learned and seen it all, but after graduating from high school at an early age (14) and starting a software company I’ve had the good fortune of going a lot of places and experiencing a lot of different things in different environments. As a result of these experiences I’ve formulated opinions, very strong ones, on certain things. Until I have more experiences (gather more data) my opinions will remain as they are. If you think I’m igorant in certain areas, don’t hate me and yell, educate me.
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Now on to mike, the anti-american enviro nazi.
A little tip, expand your vocabulary to include more than 4 letter words, you sound like some idiot from the hood, certainly not like a current or former soldier of the U.S. Armed Forces. Calm down, take a breath, and think things out a little.
On to the issue at hand. Let me say up front that you are going to lose this conversation, and lose it bad. I work in the energy industry, I have contact with world leading experts and researchers in the energy industry, and while I don
KMAN, your posts are about the most short-sighted and ignorant here.
How many times does it have to be said? Maybe you should read my history lesson, or look it up on your own… whatever the method, you should learn a little more before opening your mouth.
We were not attacked by a man, but by a rogue army. Technically we were attacked by Afghanistan because the Taliban was the government in control at the time. However because of the totally screwed up state of their country, being in a civil war, we recognized that not everyone in the country is symathetic to the Taliban. As such we are trying to help sort out the mess instead of slaughtering everyone. For our protection, and theirs.
We did not invade their country and just start thugging ourselves around. We are aiding, how many times does it have to be said, AIDING, the Northern Alliance. They have about 10x as many troops as us doing fighting. We only have a few hundred guys over there doing shooting. They are all special operations groups, which don’t engage in massive forward-based attacks, that’s what the regular Army and Marines do. In that terrain it would be the army.
Send over scholars and educators? LOL. That’s so dumb I’m not sure how to respond to it. Why don’t you just do a little dance in a purple barney suit for us, it would make about as much sense. I say we let people like you give that a run and then gladly add you to DarwinAwards.com afterwards.
Send over scholars, lol, with those pointy little shoes and faggoty pants too I suppose. LOL
Oh, and KMAN. I don’t know how many vets you know, but all the ones I know would like to kick your ass.
Those being one grandfater from WW2 (B17 Bomber Pilot and good friend of Eugene B. Sledge, a legend that served during WW2 and wrote a book about his experices at Peleliu and Okinawa. His book his titled “With the Old Breed”), another gradfather that served in Korea (Grunt Enlisted Truck Diver on the front lines), Great Uncle in Korea and Vietnam (Retired Col.), Another Great Uncle in Korea (was one of the “chosin few” that survived the Chosin Reservoir in Korea in 1950), another Great Uncle during WW2 (served on a battle ship during battles such as Midway, to this day can’t talk about the “gore” of his experiences. But he is very vocal about politics, and turds like you), and lastly my youth advisor at church, a retired Col. from the Army. He was the first helicopter pilot shot down in Vietnam, but having been shot down more than once it was hardly his only experience.
Don’t dare try and claim allegiance with men such as these. You are a coward, and disgrace to this country. Your prescence is a dishonor to us all.