I think it is important that everyone reads this.
If anyone sees this in an American paper, please let me know.
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283 thoughts on “Guardian UK”
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Damn i am glad i am not the president. if i were i would prolly just throw up my hands and quit. its so obvious that people are so divided about what the reaction should be to IRAQ, 9-11, or the afghans.
sometimes.. u just have to take action and sort out the details as it goes. i am pleased with the swift action the US took post 9-11. to sit around and debate the correct response for months following.. well honestly i feel like the middle east and others see us a BIG JOKE.
i admit retrospect is always 20 20 but so far i think the situation has been handled with patience and somewhat of a system for eliminating the threats to our homes and families.
but again i am the kind of american.. who would give my life in defense of my nation. anyone else out there like that? no one attacks my nation and not expect a massive response. i think its the prolly with americans generally.. the firt to critique are usually the ones who will not pick up a rifle and stand a post… or believe in OUR way of life enough to be willing to make the ultimate sacrafice. don’t get me wrong.. i would prolly hide behind a tree or something in combat.. but i am not afraid to stand up for what i believe.
arrogant for me to say that most of the world is wrong and our way of life is correct. i would impose my values on anyone.. because its what i believe. but in america u can say and speak freely without fear of retribution from our government… do the afghans, saudis, and iraq people deserve the same? of course.. no one should be forced to live repressed.
and YES i was serious about leasing out afghanistan to the DISNEY company. at least it could help pay for our war on terriorism.
BTW… contested or not.. GEORGE W is our president.. so hold off the firing squad until 2004 when its time to elect a new president. I applaud him .. his administration.. and thank god AL GORE is not leading the war on terrorism.
War? What war? This is no war… Congress did not declare a war – the President cannot do so on his own. Treating this like a war is a fallacy that will cause the US a great deal of damage in the long run. It will never be ‘won’ and it will never end.
We are giving up our rights here to combat terrorism here and we may never get them back. And that way the terrorists will win…
Same thing goes for this idea that the world suddenly changed on 9/11 – it did not, the US just got woken up to the real world….
I have a few quibbles with the content of the article, but I really object to the tone. “Stark new measures of repression”? Seems a bit much to me. And comparing the World Trade Center attacks to the Iraqi war, the invasion of Panama, or even Vietnam is not only inaccurate, but hurts these people’s cause. Intent matters. The previous US attacks they mention were designed to achieve specific military goals, not to kill a bunch of innocent people. Those who signed this letter are not going to reach anyone who doesn’t already feel as they do.
Having said that, I have problems with some of the current administration’s policies, especially suspending the rights of Jose Padillo (the “dirty bomber”), and treating Taliban soldiers as criminals instead of prisoners of war (al-Queda operatives, on the other hand, should be treated as criminals).
I support the war against terrorism, in Afghanistan and wherever, but I wish there was more thoughtful criticism and less knee-jerk vitriol.
Hmmm… I’m questioning the validity of this article. I just did a search on Factiva (uber news database, foreign and domestic) and on Google, and could find no other mention of this statement. Perhaps it is a valid article and the authors specifically chose the Guardian and that’s why it isn’t showing up anywhere else. I just have a sense in despite the corporate media, conspiracy, “the man” controlling the media, and whatever other yadda yadda you can come up with there would at least be mention of this article.
Unless the authors didn’t want there to be.
Damn librarians question everything don’t we.
“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
— Benjamin Franklin
Nov 11 1755, from the Pennsylvania Assembly
good job posting that.
it makes me ache when i see someone characterize such sentiments as anti-american. guess what, critics: the signatories are americans!
18CharlieBravo: You make an excellent point. I wish I knew how an individual like me could offer alternative solutions. I’m sad to say that I don’t know how to make a difference in this.
notjustanothertrekkie: Your attitude towards those of us who question the direction of our nation sickens me. Your arrogance and egotistical diatribe that we brain-iacs would be the first ones to turn tail and run is bullsh*t. If our nation’s military would accept me, I’d join in a heartbeat. And I proudly support all of my family members who are currently active-duty and in the Afganistan area. Just because I THINK about what our nation is doing doesn’t mean I don’t believe in my country or its military. Now, when are YOU signing up?
I don’t see why the Guardian should like America, it’s not a requirement for good journalisim. After all, everything’s going to be biased by nature, might as well at least have a diversified diet of biased things.
However, it is fishy that Tony Blair’s 2000 Anti-terrorisim bill, a bill that is almost as damaging to civil liberties as the recent American actions, usually gets little press.
Milt,
Resorting to personal attacks….just like a liberal.
Everything I say is a generalization. The vast majority of profs I had in college were Liberal and never made it (nor could make it) in business or corporate America. The one or two retired executives who became educators had enough personal wealth to not give a damn what the underachievers (read liberal professors) said. Those profs made the biggest impression on my life and formed my political views.
You’ll find that actors, educators, artists and theologists rarely make money or survive in the business world. We are too damn right-wing, logical and have too much common sense for them to function properly.
*applauds EQ’s statement*
my sentiments, exactly.
It would be really nice if the knee-jerkers here would take the time to READ that letter fully and make some effort to understand what it says. I would hate to think that we’re all so trained by sound bites that we can’t take the time to THINK about what’s been read, rather than react blindly.
The one thing I noticed about the signatories was that they do NOT all lean to the left. The list seems to cover a wide spectrum of political beliefs and philosophical thought.
Look kiddies, the surest way to exercise the rights and freedoms you have in this country (the US) is to use your brain, not your gonads to do your thinking. Citizenship isn’t about threatenin’ to whup ass when you think somebody is dissin’ your country. It’s about paying attention to what’s going on around you, what’s being done in your name, and acting accordingly as a citizen of a free country.
The problem with “America, love or leave it” is that it isn’t semantically much different from “Watch what you say” or “If you question your government you’re treasonous.” If this is government, of, by and for the people, then it’s our obligation to act accordingly. Like it or not, stuff is being done in your name — and the minute it’s okay to incarcerate somebody because of their beliefs, then you could be the next one in the star chamber.
Can someone answer me some questions please.
Why does America continually ignore the reasons behind 9/11?
When did it become an acceptable response to blow the crud out of anyone who may or may not dislike America?
When did Bush become a hero instead of the User,gun-toting savage he used to be?
When did all Islamics become terrorists?
Why is America allowed to have the firepower to annihilate the planet 20 times over, while all other countries are treated as rogue states?
Why? Why? Why?
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies, and world issues cannot be simplified into good vs evil, us vs them.
Its just not that easy.
9/11 was sickening, vile. But so was the armed response. Thousands of innocents died at the World Trade Centre, thousands of innocents died when Afghanistan was bombed. Many of the survivors will now hate America, those who lost family, sons, wives, husbands, fathers. These people won’t care…all they will know is that American soldiers destroyed their lives for a crime that someone else commited.
If we continue to reach for a gun, instead of thinking things through…we might as well not have bothered evolving at all. Theres more to being the good guys than deciding who is evil and then killing them.
Bin Laden is still out there. Al Quaeda is still out there.
Armies cannot fight terrorists
AvidReader
HAHAHAHAHA avidreader…. YEP my post was definitely pointed directly at you and your lack of patriotism. NOT!
Well i am in the army reserve.. so i don’t think its for me to run out and sign up.. and simply i am expressing my opinion ….. obviously i hit home with you.. otherwise u would not have taken the post so personal.
“Your arrogance and egotistical diatribe that we brain-iacs would be the first ones to turn tail and run is bullsh*t.” hmmmm i don’t think i am gonna get this personal with you.. except to say you are twice as reactive as i am. are you sure u are educated? simply BLASTING me personally for expressing my opinions.
simply i support what is being done.. i am not afraid to be called into combat to defend my nation.. and i have taken a stand on what i believe. wrong or not.. at least i made a decision.
Can someone answer me some questions please.
Why does America continually ignore the reasons behind 9/11?
When did it become an acceptable response to blow the crud out of anyone who may or may not dislike America?
When did Bush become a hero instead of the User,gun-toting savage he used to be?
When did all Islamics become terrorists?
Why is America allowed to have the firepower to annihilate the planet 20 times over, while all other countries are treated as rogue states?
Why? Why? Why?
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies, and world issues cannot be simplified into good vs evil, us vs them.
Its just not that easy.
9/11 was sickening, vile. But so was the armed response. Thousands of innocents died at the World Trade Centre, thousands of innocents died when Afghanistan was bombed. Many of the survivors will now hate America, those who lost family, sons, wives, husbands, fathers. These people won’t care…all they will know is that American soldiers destroyed their lives for a crime that someone else commited.
If we continue to reach for a gun, instead of thinking things through…we might as well not have bothered evolving at all. Theres more to being the good guys than deciding who is evil and then killing them.
Bin Laden is still out there. Al Quaeda is still out there.
Armies cannot fight terrorists
Agreeing with the statements in this letter does not make someone a “bleeding heart liberal” just as disagreeing with it does not make someone an “arch-conservative.”
This is a complex issue, and anyone who thinks this is simply black-or-white, “with us or against us,” “support terrorists or mourn the victims” has no place participating in this argument.
When you call names, and label people, you illustrate immediately and quite clearly that I don’t need to listen to a word you say.
You know, this *could* be a very informative and important debate.
But the name-calling, knee-jerk, reactionary reiteration of “I’m right!” “No! I’m right!” has completely destroyed any chance of that.
Shame on you, and you know who you are.
Can someone answer me some questions please.
Why does America continually ignore the reasons behind 9/11?
When did it become an acceptable response to blow the crud out of anyone who may or may not dislike America?
When did Bush become a hero instead of the User,gun-toting savage he used to be?
When did all Islamics become terrorists?
Why is America allowed to have the firepower to annihilate the planet 20 times over, while all other countries are treated as rogue states?
Why? Why? Why?
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies, and world issues cannot be simplified into good vs evil, us vs them.
Its just not that easy.
9/11 was sickening, vile. But so was the armed response. Thousands of innocents died at the World Trade Centre, thousands of innocents died when Afghanistan was bombed. Many of the survivors will now hate America, those who lost family, sons, wives, husbands, fathers. These people won’t care…all they will know is that American soldiers destroyed their lives for a crime that someone else commited.
If we continue to reach for a gun, instead of thinking things through…we might as well not have bothered evolving at all. Theres more to being the good guys than deciding who is evil and then killing them.
Bin Laden is still out there. Al Quaeda is still out there.
You cannot save innocents by killing more innocents.
“Citizenship isn’t about threatenin’ to whup ass when you think somebody is dissin’ your country.”
No one thinks that. Don’t make assumptions to justify your views. We didn’t immidiatley launch an offensive hours after 9/11. We waited. We planned. We told the Taliban we would not invade as long as they handed over Osama. They still would not cooperate.
I do not see our military action as blind lashing out like Clintion did. We are thinking in a very strategic manner how and who would/can support terrorism and making sure they do not. This process will go on a damn long time from now and is totally neceassary and justified. The US has shown alot of restraint in it’s actions since 9/11.
I, and alot of other citizens do not want blind bombing, revenge, and war; but a smart, continual push by the US to seek out and stop terrorists. This is the intelligent and most efficient way.
I do not think it is unamerican to question the government. What I am offended by is the thoughtless, kneejerk reaction to any act of military force as “wrong”. If you had made up your mind that the US government is inherently evil and power hungry before an issue is presented, then you will not have a true open, logical mind to decide an issue. That is what offends me about liberals viewpoints.
Oh and please stop quoting 200 year quotes by Benjamin Franklin. That was a completely different time and on a completely different scale. It’s cute and I’m sure you feel noble doing it, but please make up your own mind.
Fluffy, we haven’t ignored it once. You just misunderstand the reason behind 9/11. You think that evil can be negotiated with, appeased and reasoned with.
Lucky for the world my generation did view the world in such a way.
You have learned nothing from History. The Allied forces destroyed Germany,Italy and Japan during World War II. Less than sixty years later a good percentage of the European Allied/Axis nations have formed voluntarily under one flag. (Okay its only partial but its still a HUGE step.)
Look at Japan and the US and their history.
The world did change after Sept 11th. The US once again turned outward and was ready to begin to do what is needed in order to stop evil from spreading across the world.
If HISTORY is any guide, thats not good for them.
Fluffy, we haven’t ignored it once. You just misunderstand the reason behind 9/11. You think that evil can be negotiated with, appeased and reasoned with.
Lucky for the world my generation didn’t view the world in such a way.
You have learned nothing from History. The Allied forces destroyed Germany,Italy and Japan during World War II. Less than sixty years later a good percentage of the European Allied/Axis nations have formed voluntarily under one flag. (Okay its only partial but its still a HUGE step.)
Look at Japan and the US and their history.
The world did change after Sept 11th. The US once again turned outward and was ready to begin to do what is needed in order to stop evil from spreading across the world.
If HISTORY is any guide, thats not good for them.
notjustanothertrekkie: You’re right. And I owe you an apology. Your post was just the freshest in my mind and I didn’t take a moment to breathe deeply and back down. I’d like to say I wasn’t taking it personally, I was trying to make a point about generalizations and stereo-types. Unfortunately, I unwittingly made one (or a few) myself. And as much as I’d like to, I’m not going to respond to the “are you sure u are educated” comment. 🙂 And I don’t want to forget — good on you for being a member of the army reserve. Seriously, you ARE performing an extremely important service to the country.
wil is right that this could be an informative and important debate. Unfortunately, such important discussions are difficult to keep low-key and completely civil when it’s obvious that so many people feel so strongly. I’m glad that we’re still here discussing, though.
I concede the point that relations in Europe have changed for the better, but I feel that this is in spite of, not due to, the Second World War.
Believe me, I know my history.
My country fighting Nazi’s years before America “turned outward”. As I recall, America stood still until it was directly attacked at Pearl Harbour.
Oh, and on the subject of history, remeber the IRA, the Irish troubles? The ones that have now stopped while people who were trying to kill each other 2 years ago are now actually sitting down and trying, slowly and painfully, to deal with the problem without death? I may not like some of the things that my government has done in order to facilitate this, but I’m very happy that no more bombs are being set, and no more incidents like the Omah bombing are happening. Ireland is far from fixed, there are still huge problems, but they aint killing each other, or us. Their talking.
“Why does America continually ignore the reasons behind 9/11?”
Everyone has their own opinion about why 9/11 happened. You seem to be in the camp that assumes people are fed up with america being an “oppressor” and supporter of Palestine. Many of us do realize though that the main reason is that the Arab world and the US have competely different ideaologies and this is more than enough reason for them to hate us. We are a successful, secular nation. I do not think that arabs are “jealous” of exactly what we have, but the fact that we are a secular nation that is more successful than theirs is enough to make them realize that a society based on ancient religious laws and adverse to change is just not cutting it. Their system does not work no matter how righteous they feel. They are frustrated and lashing out because of this.
A simple difference in ideologies is more than enough to provoke war and violence. Hell, we spent 50 years locked in a cold war with russia because of our ideological differences, nothing more. We were ready to nuke each other over ideas, not because amercica had done anyting to the USSR.
“When did it become an acceptable response to blow the crud out of anyone who may or may not dislike America?”
Hmm we haven’t nuked france, have we? 🙂 There are plenty of countries that don’t like america. It just so happens that a country that doesn’t like america is more inclined to shelter terrorists. Simple. Not all anti-american nations harbor terrorists, but all nations that harbor terrorists are anti-american.
“When did Bush become a hero instead of the User,gun-toting savage he used to be?”
That’s your opinion. Don’t expect people to answer a question based on your views of one man.
“When did all Islamics become terrorists?”
Please. No one thinks this so stop being so paranoid. The only reason I might be disappointed in muslims as a whole is because they seem to lack any desire to iniate or support non-violent actions to solve their problems. Not questioning your countrymen that cause terror is something to be concerned about.
“Why is America allowed to have the firepower to annihilate the planet 20 times over, while all other countries are treated as rogue states?”
Because we are a democratic nation with seperation of church and state and a system of checks and balances. Other countries are run by dictators and are controlled by centuries old religious law. Pretty simple to understand, eh?
“Why? Why? Why?
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies, and world issues cannot be simplified into good vs evil, us vs them.”
They can be prevented from acting by intelligence and force though. If you can come up with some magical solution that avoids the need for force, I welcome it.
“Its just not that easy.
9/11 was sickening, vile. But so was the armed response. Thousands of innocents died at the World Trade Centre, thousands of innocents died when Afghanistan was bombed. Many of the survivors will now hate America, those who lost family, sons, wives, husbands, fathers. These people won’t care…all they will know is that American soldiers destroyed their lives for a crime that someone else commited.
If we continue to reach for a gun, instead of thinking things through…we might as well not have bothered evolving at all. Theres more to being the good guys than deciding who is evil and then killing them.
Bin Laden is still out there. Al Quaeda is still out there.
You cannot save innocents by killing more innocents.”
Innocents will die in any war, it’s as simple as that. I do not have a casual attitude towards death, but I do know the difference between unintentional killing and intentional mass murder. No one is saying that killing innocents is a way of stopping terrorism. Seeking out and killing terrorists is a way of stopping terrorism.
Okay, it basically boils down to this…question the government you’re unpatriotic, you don’t love freedom. follow the government blindly and you basically have given up on patriotism and freedom. what ever happened to rationality.
“Okay, it basically boils down to this…question the government you’re unpatriotic, you don’t love freedom. follow the government blindly and you basically have given up on patriotism and freedom. what ever happened to rationality.”
Like I said before, few people are blindly following government. If you make this assumption simply because someone supports the war on terror, you are assuming you know the reasons, behind one’s actions, which is irrational since you can not know everyone.
Questioning the goverment is not unamerican. I do not question the patriotism of anyone because of their views. I just question how open-minded someone is being when they think any military force at all is an unjustified act of bullying and aggression. I can’t see how many options we have in reacting to an attack on our soil. Can you tell me some detailed alternatives to militrary action?
Wil,
Thanks for posting this.
You’ve gotten a lot of shit for it, though, and I think it rather unfair. America is built upon the option of having one’s own say and political beliefs, and, more importantly, to not be persecuted for them.
A group of people (finally) gets pissed off enough at the States to do something about it, and America freaks out. With all the hypocrisy our government shovels, with all the bullshit they’ve done, and you people are surprised we were “attacked”? I’m surprised it took so damned long.
It doesn’t boil down to that for everyone. I wish people would stop lumping everyone into one of two categories.
Oh yes you are going to get my 2 cents on this one whether you asked for it or not! 🙂
The events of 9-11 where tragic and inexcusable!
Actions had to be taken. However Bush did not take the proper courses of action. He knew this was coming and allowed it because it gave him an excuse to unleash his Testosterone of the rest of the world. There were much better ways to battle terrorism without killing all of the innocents that we have. The children and people that are killed by american fire are no less significant or important than our own! And after all that we have done thus far what have we accomplished? Not a whole hell of alot! Yes terrorism needs to be stopped but Bush did not go about it the right way!
At the moment some people are knee jerking in response to the right of these people to freely and openly give their opinion. Sadly, it’s an all too real fact that such rights can be eroded and negated in the name of national defence.
The point is *not* whether or not they may be right, imho; the point is that, at the moment, they are able to oppose and give voice to dissention without harm to their person. Having already read that the FBI are making further intrusions into the private lives of individuals by reading private emails shows that our individual freedoms are already at stake.
I may not agree whole heartedly with the full content of the statement in the Gaurdian; however I would defend their right to be able to say and express it. It may not be too far into the future that such antagonistic views against our governments will not be allowed. Should that happen we shall fall victim to our own fears and that much closer to those regimes in Afghanistan that we abhorr and fight against.Dictatorship is the same whether wrapped in religious fervour or the bows and ribbons of national defence. Neither bodes well for the future.
Anne –
I just want to clarify something. From reading your posts, it sounds as though you believe the attacks were justified? Please tell me I took your post the wrong way.
Liberal rhetoric. -=PLOINK=- These same lame-brains will be belly aching when they’re paying $5/gallon for gas in 5 years because they wanted to keep the Tundra Tortoises in Alaska from being disturbed by drilling rigs… Oh, they’re all rich it appears.
“There were much better ways to battle terrorism without killing all of the innocents that we have”
Please tell me what your ideal would be in responding to the terrorist attacks of 9/11. We tried 5 weeks of diplomacy before we took any military action, remember. In my opinion, military action was necessary, and while it is sad that innocent people die in wars, it is not enough reason to stop all military action in seekign justice.
Just my .02 on the letter:
I’ve noticed a trend, particularly among leftist intellectuals, to equate anything resembling a struggle to historical struggles much more sweeping in scope. Unfortunately, this hyperbole is not only disengenuous, it’s insulting. Example?
Writing a letter to a foreign publication that makes no bones about its political stance and is guaranteed sympathetic is in NO WAY the equivalent of working for the Underground Railroad, where Quakers and others risked their lives for their principles. For the writers to even put themselves in the same class as those people insults their memory, and makes the signees seem ridiculous. Perhaps that’s the real reason we haven’t seen the letter here? They aren’t afraid that publishing this letter in the US will affect their lives or livelihoods, they’re afraid of ridicule and challenge. And it’s a hell of a lot harder to maintain the veneer of moral and intellectual superiority when people are laughing their asses off at you.
America can and has learned from history. If we hadn’t, every Arab or Muslim in the US would be in internment camps right now, the middle east would be a parking lot, and we’d all be enjoying free oil.
If I believe that the measures taken against terrorism begin to infringe on my rights more than is necessary, I’ll be right out there trying to change it. I’m not convinced of it right now, however, and a bunch of folks screaming about how the sky is falling aren’t going to change my mind.
I guess I’m a throwback, but I actually have faith in this country to do the right thing most of the time. I’ll wait and see.
Thanks Dale. I think what people seem to be forgetting or choosing not to acknowledge is that we didn’t invade Afghanistan 9/12. We did warn the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden. We gave them plenty of time to do so, and they didn’t. Try and remember that.
I want to make a quick observation.
It seems many of the more left leaning wheatonfans here keep bringing up the issue of how they think there is an “us vs. them” attitude in the country and that they are getting flak for questioning the government. No one here seems to be calling you unamerican or taking issue with the fact that you hold these views, so could you please focus on the issue at hand, the issue being whether the article in the guardian has any credibility, and if the war on terrorism is justfied or not?
Bringing up the “us vs. them” issue again and again without provocation is little more than a grab for attention and importance.
I’ll say it again: No one here is questioning your american values or patriotism because you question the government. Of course that is what makes this country great. We are just questioning the thought process behind your views.
I love the smell of WW.net in the morning.
Wil,
You’re right about the kids just name-calling. I want you to keep something in mind, though. Even though many people didn’t post a response to this article, you’re helping them to think about the issue which, in my humble opinion, is reason enough to post it. Heck even the flamers are “thinking” about it, ya know?
I’ll simply say, “thanks”.
Posted by NephraTari at June 14, 2002 01:05 PM PUT YOUR NAME ON A BALLOT AND RUN FOR OFFICE.
i am the first to step and defend george w. who cares if i like the man or not.. he has the hardest jobs in the world.. and i doubt very much his testerone has anything to do with the american response to 9-11. from the election to china.. to the recession to 9-11 to the conflict in afghanistain… i think he has handled himself alot better than most.. within this first year in office.
literally the man has tried to inspire and raise the spirits and patriotism of americans…… with his speeches and comments. i applaude him for speaking out.. and certainly attempting to bring the american people together for a change.
i guess its pretty easy to look at the presidents decisions and say.. OH WOW, i would have done this this and this.. versus how he did it. but unfortunately he is privy to information we are not. i sure if we watched out lives on TV… there are bounds of things we could have done differently. if u are so opposed to how he runs the country.. maybe u can write to him for a red phone in yer house.. so he can call you for advice before he makes a decision. better yet.. he will not make a decision until all 260 million americans have agreed on a course of action. they we can vote on it.. except in florida.. cause we floridians don’t know how to use the butterfly ballot.
i just think…. unless u are willing to make a significant contribution to a solution in government…….. burning of effage of george w on this board… does no one any good.
First, some one asked when has the US ever deliberately targeted large groups of civilians in either Iraq or Panama. Well, deliberately targeted civilians in those places, I’m not sure. But I do know that the US has done such a thing. Cambodia. Yep, we bombed the fuck out of them, on purpose, tho they weren’t doing anything wrong when we did it. They were peaceful. This demonstrates that our gov’t does do horrible things and it is responsible for tragedy. Second, anyone who says teachers can’t make it in the real world is saying something very ignorant & very untrue. One can’t truly teach w/o being able to “do”. Teaching is a noble profession. I have known people in educational institution who have no business calling themselves teachers, but most are fantastic. Even those whose opinions regarding politics, religion & other issues I disagree w/. And all of them, liberal & conservative, had more common sense than most other people I’ve encountered in my life -on the net or actually in the real world. To assume some one who has liberal tendancies has no common sense is also an ignorant thing to say. Common sense is not unique to conservatives -and neither would be personally attacking an individual. In fact, except for those conservative professors & a very few others, most conservatives I’ve know have seriously lacked in common sense & were more prone to personal attacks than anyone else I’ve known. Yet I’m aware those traits aren’t necessarily found in all conservatives. Avidreader, I love that quote! “For the US to maintain its moral authority in the fight against terrorism, its action must be implemented in accordance w/ core American legal & social values”. Karl, I’m not doubting you, I just want to know where you learned the US is the only country convicted in world court of State Terrorism, I’d like to learn more about this. Regarding Padilla. Is there more evidence against him? So far the stuff I read is kind of weak & some of it circumstantial. My gut feeling says he was definately doing something wrong. But I want justice, not vengence. I want to see him tried in accordance w/ the law. That way people who have issue w/ his likely conviction have less to stand on. Also, if we go bending the rules to appease our sense of vengence, if we act out irrationally and brutally, we can’t claim that moral authority. Janis Cortese was right when she said feminists (and others) were trying to get the attention of people in power for a long time in regard to the Taliban. I talked about it when some people I know tried to discuss current events. They had no ida what I was talking about (pre 9/11 & now they think they are experts on the subject). It is disheartening that the US -so powerful & capable, wasn’t motivated to do something until it was us who was attacked. Not that I’m sure what we could have done. And not that I think it should have been us alone. One could easily argue we are the strongest & most capable but there are other countries that are strong & enjoy better lives than others in the world. Hence we all could have done something before things escalated to this point. Yep, we are strong & powerful & capable of a lot. We do enjoy many freedoms, rights, priviledges, and excesses. I dont’ want to completely Americanize the whole world, not everyone wants an SUV, a McDonalds on every corner, and everything we have. But everyone deserves good food, shelter, basic clothing, freedom of speech, & a feeling of safety. As a strong & powerful nation, we should help others, all others who doon’t have these things to get them & keep them. Sometimes we will have to use force against certain people/factions/governments who abuse others. But we need to be careful w/ how much force (we don’t want to sink to their level). And make sure we get the right people. Again, I say other nations that also have some power & enjoy freedoms should work w/ us. Or we w/ them, however you want to say it, as long as it gets done. There should be some distinctions made. The USA does good. Well, individuals & organizations based in the USA does good. Sometimes our gov’t does, too -either out of genuine goodness or b/c it feels politically threatened or a bit of each. And the USA does bad, individuals, organizations, and the gov’t. The same can be said of any nation or group of ethnic peoples who have ever held power in the history of civilization. As far as 9/11 is concerned. What I want to do is goet every individual responsible for that & personally bludgeon them to death. But then I’d be like them. And I’m not. I value justice over vengence. Sometimes the line seperating the 2 is faint. But it is important to make that distinction. I supported going into Afghanistan and physically removing the Taliban, destroying their regime. I wanted them to pay for their crimes and not just the ones against America. I do think our leaders are overzelous. Our job should not be to crush Islamics. Not all of them are fundamentalists hell bent on killing Americans either b/c they want to stifle freedom or b/c they are jealous. Military action was necessary. But I am afraid of going too far. Our leaders are intersted in vengence, not justice. They stopped working towards guaranteeing our safety and now are using our men & women in the military (whom I respect tremendously) to bully the rest of the world. It is not just an abuse on the rest of the world but on our military also. Bush is scary! “You are either w/ us or against us!” Even those w/ us are scared! And scaring people in to submission or to behave the way we want doesn’t work. Maybe for a little while but eventually scare people become pissed-off people. And this will all happen again. Also, our rights as Americans, our way of life is being threatened, not just by that “axis of evil” but by the current administration. “There ought to be limits to freedom” -George W. Bush, May 21, 1999. That man is now our president! Iraq, yeah, I wanna bludgeon Saddam, too. But we gotta be careful. We gotta be sure of every little thing we do. WE could piss off others who are powerful enough to hurt us (not just w/ terrorist activities, other methods, too). We don’t want to sink to the level of those we abhore, either. We have to make sure we do it right to ensure the safety of all people and to make sure we dont’ get into trouble ourselves (there is an international court of justice & it has punished us before). Wrapping it up now. Matrix, you’ve made some good points. Al Gore was in Vietnam, sure as a journalist, but he was there & saw people killing & dying. Bush went AWOL in training camp for the Reserves. (Yep, personal attack, I’m big enough to admit that & no, I don’t think Gore is great, just not as scary as Bush). I critique this administration but I will also take up a gun & fight & die for it, if necessary. Fluffy, you also make good points. Nearly everyone I talk to face to face who supports the unofficial war on terrorism quotes “either w/ us or against us” and are ignorant of many facts, even those that could help to prove their own damn points! I also heard something a PURPLE HEART reciepient (sp?) once said -during Vietnam. He said it is patriotic to question our government. It is unpatriotic to blindly support our leaders. This is a man who fought in a war. This is a man who, IMO, is wise. And, finally, I will quote something I saw on the ‘net somewhere: I don’t have to like [George W.] Bush to LOVE America!
Wil, i appreciate your opinion, and your right to express it. However, without a government to protect us from terrorist nations, you won’t be able to host your videogame tv shows. These people want to END us and our way of life. Thousands of Americans are dead, and people are more concerned for the rights of the terrorists! I can’t understand this. Be grateful you live in a country that allows you to express differing views from the government, i am…
Wil,
Your disregard for seriousness and impact of the attacks on 9/11 is sickening. I hope you never have to hear that your wife was in a building that was blown up and that her heart was picked up off the ground by a rescue worker like it was a rotting apple on the sidewalk. Or that you ever have to ask Nolan and Ryan to swab the inside of their mouths so they can identify their mother’s remains. Both of these acts have taken place thousands of time in NYC over the past 9 months and it will go on for a long time. The best we can do work hard and try to prevent this from happening again. Please come to NYC and look at the hole of destruction yourself. You will be humbled.
I’m not so much concerned with the rights of a terrorist (whom I believe is most likely guilty of planning to harm Americans) as I am with how those infringements may soon affect MY rights. That’s vital connection to make in this debate.
I’m not arguing the need for response, we just need to find that line between response/defense and revenge. It’s absurd to think that our government would not respond to what has happened. My concern is that with all the precedents that have been set (holding Padilla for so long, the PATRIOT act, etc.), MY rights as an American citizen are becoming narrower and narrower. I think that’s why this conversation started, isn’t it?
Another thing that concerns me is that there seems to be many more people that want to criticize and nitpick what our goverment is doing, instead of working to come up with solutions of how to deal with terrorism and balance it with their views on civil rights.
Don’t get me wrong, critics of our government are good, it’s just the proportion of them compared to people actually offering solutions that is way out of whack.
“Why does America continually ignore the reasons behind 9/11?”
Please list the reasons. We need to know. Please tell us.
“When did it become an acceptable response to blow the crud out of anyone who may or may not dislike America?”
Disliking America is not the reason. The killing of innocent Americans is.
“When did Bush become a hero instead of the User,gun-toting savage he used to be?”
When he took action. Please give us specific alternatives. We need alternatives.
“When did all Islamics become terrorists?”
They haven’t.
“Why is America allowed to have the firepower to annihilate the planet 20 times over,…”
America is not “allowed”, we asked or need the approval of no one. We need to ask no one to begin to stop it. We hold that power ourselves. We only need to use it. (we get the opportunity to “use it” every 4 years. Why do less than 1 in 4 Americans use it? VOTE!!!)
“… while all other countries are treated as rogue states?”
All countries are not.
“Why? Why? Why?
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies, and world issues cannot be simplified into good vs evil, us vs them.”
Please tell us how to fight them. Please give us specific alternatives.
“Its just not that easy.
9/11 was sickening, vile.”
Agreed
“..But so was the armed response.”
What should have been done? Please give us specific alternatives.
“Thousands of innocents died at the World Trade Centre,..”
Agreed
“… thousands of innocents died when Afghanistan was bombed.”
…so did many whose life
sarcastic cheese:
you asked a very complicated question that i won’t bother answering on wil’s comment system.
and besides, i’m sick of hearing/discussing about this ‘9-11’ bullshit.
i simply wanted to acknowledge wil’s boldness for supporting the article.
Ok, I’m back but I’ll try to keep this short. One, I actually do know people who follow the gov’t blindly. Some have even told me all they need is Bush’s word. I also know people who think all Islamics are terrorists or terrorists in training. One even advocated killing all Islamics, just in case! (Yeah, one lone freak, but that there is even one is scary.) Also there is no justification for why we have weapons of mass destruction. No nation should have these! (Not that I think that just b/c we have them we should let others their share, but lets be honest about the hypocrisy.) And finally, people have personally attacked me (not here, but in face to face conversations) of being unpatriotic & stupid b/c of my views & cautions. Just felt the need to clarify that.
Please, lets be clear on this. NO-ONE is more concerned with the rights of the terrorists than with the rights of innocents. What we are concerned about is that OUR rights, to freedom of speech, expression, belief, the whole shebang, are being curtailed, sweepingly, and we are unhappy because there will be nothing in place to protect our rights. If the American Government declares a person an “enemy combatant”, then that person can be held without trial, no appeals, nothing. In Britian, the MPs are about to vote for a law which will allow unprecedented surveillence into our personal lives, one which will prevent us from appealing against its use, the only recourse for a complainant being a secret Tribunal, which is not answerable to the rest of our justice system.
That scares me.
The systems that are being put in place tp prevent terrorists are putting everyone under suspicion. THats what we are worried about. Because a corrupt agency, or Government could use those systems to do whatever they wished, arrest whoever they wished, and imprison them without public trial.
I remeber a book called Orbital Decay. About a bunch of astronauts who discovered that the space-station they were building was actually a special NSA listening device, which would effectivly remove all liberty and privacy. They destroyed the station, believing that personal freedoms had cost too much to gain, just to give them away.
“I’m not arguing the need for response, we just need to find that line between response/defense and revenge.”
I think we have done a pretty damn good job finding it. We didn’t go in and nuke everyone. A month of diplomacy followed by a strategic invasion is a pretty good walk on that fine line.
I too am fascinated by the precedent set by the acts being taken now in terms of holding people for questioning, etc. However, I am starting to see that a slightly-less-than-ideal respect for a certain person’s civil rights in face of evidence is necessary. If the lives of thousands are on the line, and we are not fighting a visible or obvious enemy, our hand is forced into taking a less than noble path in finding and rooting out these terrorists. The big question though is how many people are affected by this.
Welcome to the end of idealism.
Anne –
To me, it’s not a complicated question, but I respect your not wanting to discuss it here. I have a feeling such a discussion would only send the flames higher.
But, 9/11 was not bullshit.
Bomb where we *think* he could be hiding, then send food and medical supplies to those innocent we knowingly endangered. Forget that we have done things on the same level of 9 11, call it god’s war, make people of international birth feel they should hide their accent…
president bush has said repeatedly that his motivation behind this “war” is the pursuit of justice. almost 3000 americans were killed on 9/11. what do you expect the leader of the most powerful country in the world to do? it’s not about revenge. there may be a fine line; but who are we to claim to know what’s in his heart?
it’s sad that so many people not directly involved in the terrorist attacks have been forced to suffer because of the american response; but from the president’s perspective, there’s nothing else he can do.
the fact of the matter is, no one is “innocent.” i find it amusing to read, repeatedly, in the guardian article that the signers “believe” certain things. what basis do they have for these beliefs? it’s just what they “feel.”
Just to clarify something:
1. This was not an article written by the Guardian.
2. This was not an article written by UK citizens.
3. This was not an article, period.
This was:
A letter written by a collection of artists, scholars, and activists who wished to express an opinion and bring awareness to an issue they felt strongly about.
Something they are freely allowed to do in this country. (At least for the moment.)(Sorry. That was a bit bitchy, wasn’t it? 🙂
Here’s the main group behind this letter:
http://www.artistsnetwork.org/
Here’s the website for the organizers of the letter:
http://www.notinourname.net/
Here’s a BBC article on this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/arts/newsid_2044000/2044912.stm
And Wil, thank you very much for posting this, I hadn’t heard about it.
(And, this is totally personal, but as a social worker picking up the pieces of the raped, abused, and battered men, women and children in the country: I most fervently wish we had MORE teachers, scholars, artists and theologians. Maybe we’d have less prisons, poverty, and violence. )