I think it is important that everyone reads this.
If anyone sees this in an American paper, please let me know.
Discover more from WIL WHEATON dot NET
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
283 thoughts on “Guardian UK”
Comments are closed.
“One, I actually do know people who follow the gov’t blindly. Some have even told me all they need is Bush’s word. I also know people who think all Islamics are terrorists or terrorists in training. One even advocated killing all Islamics, just in case! (Yeah, one lone freak, but that there is even one is scary.)”
Congratulations, you know a few nuts. But most people do have good reason for supporting military action against terrorists who are more than happy to kill most of us if they had the chance. The difference between us is that I give people a chance to explain their motivations and thoughts behind their beliefs, and you are making broad, ignorant assumptions about people’s motivations and stating them as fact.
“Also there is no justification for why we have weapons of mass destruction. No nation should have these!”
Sorry. They are the ultimate deterrent system. Plus no matter what happens, rogue and unstable nations will always either have them or will be working towards building them. So if they have them we must have them too. What would you like to do? Invade Pakistan and take away their nukes? That wouldn’t go over too well unless your are wearing 60000 SPF sunblock.
“I most fervently wish we had MORE teachers, scholars, artists and theologians. Maybe we’d have less prisons, poverty, and violence.”
I think that’s a big issue people are taking with this letter. It is written by people whose beliefs are nothing more than theory. Intellectuals always seem to lack a very important detail in finding worthy solutions: Experience in what they are talking about. The most efficient solutions and ideas will come from people right in the middle of it all, not from some overly-idealistic academics who put their ideals above the real world.
Don’t lose sight of the main point of this letter, it is not Anti-American;this letter points out that the Bush administration is turning what America stands for upside down. It kind of makes Bush anti-american.
America is supposed to about freedom; freedom to live, freedom to speak, and ensuring equality under the law.
One thing that scares me about all this is that one might draw something of a parallel between what the two sides of this debate think of each other and what the two sides of this war/conflict think of each other. I certainly don’t mean to suggest that anyone involved in this discussion is about to get violent; however, I think some people have tried hard to discount each other and gotten pretty mean about it. There seems to be a sentiment of “It doesn’t matter what you think because you’re a bleeding heart liberal and your views are unappreciative of the freedoms you enjoy.” vs. “It doesn’t matter what you think because you’re thinking with your gonads and your reaction is knee-jerk patriotism”.
Admittedly, it’s not the exactly same thing, but in many places in the world people believe that it doesn’t matter what Americans think because we are godless, corrupt, evil, immoral and will trample to dust anyone who stands in the way of our narrow interests. Where as we believe it doesn’t matter what violent Muslim extremists think because they are brainwashed, irrational fanatics who have dedicated their very lives to our destruction. This thinking and the mutual demonization that results divides the sides so completely that there is no chance for meaningful communication. Without meaningful communication there is no way to resolve conflict.
I don’t have all the answers, and I’m just as guilty as the next person when it comes to discounting other people’s opinions. I do try to remind myself that it does matter what people think no matter who they are or what they believe. They are a person just as entitled to speak as I am. So I’d encourage all involved in this discussion to focus on the ideas and views being presented rather than potential ways to dismiss, discount and demonize the person presenting the opinion. That kind of thinking on a grand scale led to the war we are fighting right now. I believe we are better than that.
There are many issues in this discussion about which I feel very strongly. I can’t possible cover them all, so I’ll just go for 2:
First, I have to raise the BS flag on this idea of “When did it become a crime to question the government.” I’ve heard this over and over from people on the far left. Well, of course it’s not a crime to question the government. In fact, it is a great American tradition. The disdain and ridicule you hear is because of the specific questions you ask and the statements you make, not because you are asking questions and making statements. Imagine if a new government policy suggested that people should be nice to their neighbors, and a vocal minority started ridiculing and questioning the suggestion. That vocal minority would itself endure ridicule and questioning, not because they were questioning the government, but because their opinion was so far out of line with how the GREAT MAJORITY of other Americans felt. Remember that just as a person has a right to express his opinion, so does another person have a right to vocally disagree.
Second, with regard to Padilla, it’s my experience that civilian and military justice have different philosophies behind them. Our civilian justice system is based on the concept that it’s better to let a guilty person go free than to risk eroding the rights of innocent people. Our system of military justice, on the other hand, sees justice and security as its ultimate goals. If a person is found to be guilty in a military court, they are more likely to be actually punished, regardless of whatever peripheral issues of procedure may be present. So in this case, when the survival of our very country is at stake (yes, I believe it is that serious in the 10-20 year time frame) those who are RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR SECURITY (i.e., nobody who is posting on this board, no matter how eloquent or vehement our opinions may be) have decided that in this time of war it makes sense to go after those who would destroy us as if our survival depended on it, with an eye toward justice and security rather than toward erring on the side of the accused, as our civilian system does. And I’ve already read that Ben Franklin quote a thousand times since September, so don’t bother.
P.S. We’re not “bombing Afghanistan.” We’re fighting a specific group in Afghanistan. People all over Afghanistan have celebrated the vanquishing of the Taliban and the foreign terrorist group know as Al Queda. And if you have proof (or even evidence) that “thousands of innocents have been killed,” I sure would like to see it.
“America is supposed to about freedom; freedom to live, freedom to speak, and ensuring equality under the law.”
It’s easy to be that ideal when it comes to peacetime. But bending the rights of a few people to prevent the deaths of thousands is a fair trade. Bush is not building concentration camps or saying that islam is our enemy. He is not infringing on the rights of huge numbers of people. Alarmism just deadens your credibiliy.
Posted by notjustanothertrekkie at June 14, 2002
*sigh* this is why I rarely post political opinions. What few I do have are very unpopular.
Why? Because I don’t nod my head and follow the flock because its what we are supposed to do!
Lovely suggestion hon, but you know they assisinate all the good presidents so I think I will pass on running for office! 😉
I understand the anger that loyalty will spur in a person, which is what I attribut most of your comments too.
I do try to avoid getting into heated debates because I just don’t like them..it’s too easy for someone to get personal.
My opinion is simply that, and its worth no more than the 2 cents that I valued it at. Take it as you will.
someone asked what should have been done?
My answer, more intelligience an strategic attacks. If we were going to go after those responsible thats fair but we mass bombed areas and killed many people who were not involved.
Our elite know how to take out Osama and his men. Use of covert and very educated attacks would have been wiser than just flying over and dropping and bunch of bombs and and if we hit the bad guys woo hooo if we miss them.. oh well they are just xxxxxx. Politicians use situations like this for their own means. It works well for them. I am not a military strategist but it doesn’t take a physicist to figure out that we could have been smarter about this and avoiding killing innocents.
For the last time…the lives of those people are just as precious and important as the lives of our own families! Its time we stopped making excuses for these atrocities and started to demand change!
“For the last time…the lives of those people are just as precious and important as the lives of our own families! Its time we stopped making excuses for these atrocities and started to demand change!”
You’re a naive college student, right?
Prior to every world war we have ever fought, the people of the US were isolationists. “It’s not our problem. Let them take care of themselves.” was the mantra repeated over and over again. Then, when we were directly threatened, we reacted, but by then the enemy had built up so much force that millions of people had to die in order to protect our way of life. This article is bringing the tragic mistakes of the past back to the our future. They say that history repeats itself, well here you are.
I agree that some of the steps that the Bush adminstration have made lately have upset me, and I’ve made my feelings known. To say that a few stupid ideas should bring about the end to the war we are fighting is insane. All of the things that the Bush adminstration suggests are being weighed by the Supreme Court for constitutionality and if they fail to meet it’s high requirements, they will be removed, plain and simple. I don’t see “Emperor Bush” ever becoming a possibility.
To end my statement, I would like to say that if we do end the war, totally move out of Europe, Asia, and the Middle East, and cut all ties with Israel, the bombings abroad and in our country will STILL continue. A large number of these people hate us, no matter what we do. Their belief structure makes it impossible for them to live on the same planet as we do, in peace. To think that this will all end if we ignore it is just crazy.
“You’re a naive college student, right?”
Sorry no, I am just a compassionate human being.
What saddens me is that you don’t why your comment was sooo wrong. 🙁
First they came for the Communists,and I didn
Wil,
Shut the fuck up.
IMHO, an act of terrorism, as one that Padilla is being detained for is different than someone who murders someone in the heat of passion. It is an attack on the country, therefore subject to military laws. The government is not taking away his rights on a whim. Our government does not operate this way, and anyone who believes so didn’t pay attention in high school government class. Our government isn’t perfect, by any stretch of the imagination, and I don’t agree with everything that has transpired since 9/11.
And I (meaning me and only me) wouldn’t call the authors/signers of this letter Patriots. They are mearly expressing THEIR point of view. Nothing Patriotic about that. The true patriots are those that are off fighting because they feel they are protecting those of us still at home. My boyfriend is a US Marine. I hate that this war is going on because it has kept us apart. And will continue to do so. I have no love for the military. They treat their personnel like machines and have no regard for their well-being. War sucks, for both sides. Innocent people lose their lives. It stirs up emotions in people. People who would normally get along and be friends find themselves arguing the validity of everything. It drives normally sensible, rational people to name-calling just to get their point across.
John, I did like your quote.
Okay, just reading about the first eight comments has given me a headache, so I quit trying, and therefore apologize if this has been said before.
Of course no US media is going to publish this. That would qualify as ‘taking a stand on something’.
I could write a book full of the comments that filled my head as I read both the statement and the comments on this page. But I’ll narrow it down:
It is pointless to fight a war in which we abandon the very ideals that we are supposedly trying to protect. Period.
Wow – I’m amazed by the discussion here.
Wil is right though – we do need to think about this. Like it or not, the west is not coming under attack because we’ve always treated the rest of the world so well that they have nothing else do to.
jl asked a bit further up where I got the information re the US and the World Court. Some links are provided below. Do a Google search for “”World Court” “state terrorism” US Nicaragua” and you’ll find a bunch of references. Chompsky also references this in his book on September 11th and the reaction to it.
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/feb98herman.htm
7th or 8th paragraph
http://cisw.cla.umn.edu/newsletters/writing_war/state_terrorism.htm
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/politics/0000123.php
9th paragraph
Dale S.:
If quoting 200 year old sources is out of the question, perhaps we should never quote anything. After all, every moment is a different time, there are always different circumstances…
In addition, I don’t think these “overly idealistic” intellectuals are putting their ideals over real world issues. I think they’ve probably put a lot of thought behind this, much more than some of the reactionaries who have posted here. They didn’t get to where they are without knowing how to think something through, and this sure doesn’t seem like something a bunch of googly-minded hippies would come up with on a rainy afternoon after smokin’ some prime hash and eating tofu brownies.
Johr Dermal:
Please don’t presume that much of Mr. Wheaton. It’s incredibly insensitive, and misinformed. Do the homework – read the archives from September the 11th here.
Heatherly:
Thank you.
Hadez:
Take your own advice.
I’ve got respect for these people who’ve taken it upon themselves to write this letter. They’re entitled to their opinions, no matter how “un-American” it may seem.
Which reminds me, it bugs the SHIT out of other peoples in the Americas when we use the term “American” to refer to citizens of the USA. It really, REALLY does.
To quote another dead white guy:
A little revolution now and then is a good thing.
– Thomas Jefferson.
To lighten the mood (and provoke some thought):
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2002/06/14/notes061402.DTL&nl=fix
“I most fervently wish we had MORE teachers, scholars, artists and theologians. Maybe we’d have less prisons, poverty, and violence.”
…maybe not so much idealistic, Dale, as simply a real alternative to the insanity society has devolved into, if only the human beings in charge of our liberties could be persuaded to agree, and pump money into such a long-term endeavor …everything now great once had a small (dare I say “idealistic”) beginning.
To those who seem angry at Wil for posting this, I think he is very much within his rights as a free, sane human being to agree or disagree with the ideals of government. It seems to me that the weight of the disagreement would fall on the side of our government becoming more dense and unapproachable against its citizens than said government’s decision to attack those it has claimed destroyed innocent American lives on 911. If the trail of responsibility for 911 correctly traces back to Al Qaida, then indeed that organization represents the height of hatred for America; if Al Qaida were somehow discovered not to be the source — in some strangely sick and twisted version of reality — then they now have a new, much richer hatred for America that they did not have before September 01. Either way, world peace that includes the US does not seem close at hand.
I must admit I am a bit concerned about what this could ultimately turn into from a domestic point of view. Islamic nations loathing the US is not new, but the waits and levels of harassment at airport terminals certainly is. Perhaps George Orwell predicted it a few decades too early…
In describing this “anti-American” post, NotjustanotherTrekkie wrote: “Better yet, allowing a class of children to burn to death in a building, because they were not wearing proper attire.”
This was in Saudi Arabia. The country where bin Laden is from, the country where he made his billions and billions (insert Carl Sagan voice here) and where he recruited a ton of militant, fundamental Islamists. And, guess what. They’re our ALLIES against the Axis of Evil. We give them money, preferntial treatment and they give us a place to put our base. And, their populace hates us just as much as the Taliban does, but they have a stronger and richer monarchy to support them than the Taliban did (does).
I don’t think we should just sit back and not defend ourselves, but I think there is a fine line between defending ourselves and attacking innocent people.
There have been scores more innocent Afghanis killed than there were innocent Americans. This means that our attacks aren’t directed clearly. Should we wipe out the infrastructure of Al-Qaeda, yes! But, we haven’t done that. They just keep moving from one area to the next. They are in a part of the world where the governments say they support us (so we won’t bomb them), but where the populace supports Al-Qaeda.
If we truly want to end this war, we need to find a way to get the populace on our side, or at least less on the side of the fundamental terrorists.
And, if we are going to go about killing all terrorists, then we’re going to have attack our allies. Saudi Arabia is just one example. This isn’t feasible and shouldn’t happen. The best way to change an institution is from the inside. I don’t think this should be more of an infiltrative war than a bombing war. Sending in our spies would be a good start. And, it is possible that we are. And, if so we woldn’t be hearing about it because we don’t want to jeopardize the lives of these individuals.
Scratch. You say that no-one has been bombing Afghanistan, and ask me for proof…
Hmmm, so all that CNN footage of Kabul and Islamabad (large population centres, as I recall) being bombed was faked was it? All the footage on various news programs, (such as BBC News 24, the World Service etc) of Afghani people, wandering aimlessly through the wreckage of what used to be their home, looking for their missing relatives, or the footage and statements of those in field hospitals demanding to know why their children were dead because of American bombs…whas that all faked?
You cannot bomb population centres without hitting innocent people.
The idea that it is acceptable to cause the deaths of large numbers of innocents to kill those who are guilty, is absurd. It makes us no differant than the monsters we fight against. If we fight evil, we must gaurd against becoming evil ourselves. The removal of basic human rights, like the right to fair trial in a justice system that can be held accountable, is just another type of oppression.
To those who took the time to try and answer my questions:- thank you. I have responses, but not the time or space to provide them. Not here, at any rate. Please provide me with an e-mail I can send to if you are really interested.
Patriotism comes in many forms…it doesn’t have to be displayed with guns.
The Federalist Papers, written by several of our founding fathers, was a form of Patriotism.
The writing of the Declaration of Independence, and signing it was a form of Patriotism.
In each of these cases, it was people expressing their views. Defending those views with their lives would come later…but they were patriots before they did so.
I am willing to accept that those who are convicted of treason can be treated diferently than those convicted of other crimes….but in a country where one is innocent until proven guilty, I have difficulties denying him due process before he is so convicted.
It means if the government wants to try a citizen in a military court, all they have to do is accuse them of Treason….If they want to hold them indefinitely without trial….all they have to do is accuse them of treason. There is something wrong there.
“Oh, but in this case, he **IS** guilty, we already know that.” Doesn’t quite work as justification.
Meanwhile, the FBI and CIA are being granted the right to invade our privacy, whether or not they have reason to even suspect us of Treason or any other crime…under the belief that they may catch someone who is guilty of such in the process…
From what I recall, Vietnam wasn’t a war, per se, either.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Addendum: Mix this thought with the previous one about the media as you please, but (headache notwithstanding) I have been reminded, by the reading of these posts, of the old proverb: “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.”
Which applies more to this chain of comments than to my view of the people and government of the US. (It’s the fools who get things done, after all; but all that seems to be getting done here is to get everyone really hacked off…)
A column by known liberal-leftist William Safire on the new police powers being granted our governmental agencies.
(note to those who don’t know: Safire is actually a conservative)
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyKey=84053&BCCode=WSCS
http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wtc.html
As a citizen of “the rest of the world” and a bleeding heart liberal i feel compelled to throw in my opinion, as is my right and want. Being both a satirist and an avid political activist i feel i must clarify the position of many of my peers here in the UK. Whilst not claiming to speak for the masses i must say that most people do not hate the US. Indeed, during your countries previous administration the US could consider itself one of the most loved countries in the UK and indeed the EU at large.
Our city, Birmingham had the fortune to host a G8 summit at one point in the nineties and was attended by amongst others, President Bill Clinton. Having been a member of the crowds witnesing his arrival and later watching his walkabout on television, I can say that the affection expressed for this man and your country was overwhelming confirming not only our so called “special relationship”, but also our kindred belief in the ideals of freedom and equality. I again witnessed this in this years St Patricks day parade, when NYFD firefighters who were present at the WTC bombings attended and marched alongside our own emergency services. The crowds response was overwhelming and the forefighters were cheered and applauded in a way that had not been seen for a long time. It is further evident in the fact that for every ROI flag and Union Jack that was being waved, a Stars and Stripes of the Union flew proudly alongside them.
To make my point, it is not America people dislike, but instead the administration in charge of your country. When GWB came into power the world greeted him nervously, fearing an increasingly unstable world would become more dangerous. His advocation on what was at the time an illegal defense program, his withdrawl from the Kyoto accords and the application of tariffs on steel imports to protect a waning, inefficient industry caused further tension and ultimately, mistrust. Nobody here supports or in any way sympathises with terrorists and our response to the events of september 11th was that of disgust and overwhleming support, but that support was aimed at the people and not the policies of a president who is portrayed here as a man of ltd understanding of the wider world, who policies are created by his subordinates and explained to him using sock puppets followed by him blindly signing whatever is placed in front of him. In short, we dont trust him.
Please understand that it is not the US get shirty with but The Man (to quote some of Wils posts) and i would encourage you to not follow him blindly. If you support his administrations policies whole heartedly then that is fair enough, but please try and be objective from time to time and remember that there are more perspectives to consider than your own countries. do not blindly agree with things for fear of being labelled unpatriotic and exercise the feedom of speech and choice that you so cherish (and constantly remind us of the ass kicking you gave us for them). Sorry if i’ve upset anyone but us euro-trash limies are difficult to silence.
PS. Wil, thanks again for the use of the T-Shirt.
Wow. I haven’t seen a flame war like this since I read Usenet.
Folks, clearly there’s a wide range of opinions here. Yours differing from mine doesn’t make me right and you wrong, or vice versa.
I’m glad that we in the U.S. have the freedom to post to a public forum like this one and criticize our government, or aspects of it, without fear of prosecution. I hope that we retain that freedom.
What has really galled me about much of the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on 9/11 is the level of public discourse. It’s been present in the statements coming from the White House, it’s been present in the media coverage, and it’s certainly present here. So much of the discussion has just degraded to simplistic descriptions of small aspects of what’s going on.
For example, Bush said it was good for Padilla to be detained because he was a “bad guy.” It’s not that I necessarily think he shouldn’t be detained. It’s just that saying it’s because he’s a “bad guy,” as though this were all as simple as an episode of _Gunsmoke_, belies the complexity of the issue of detaining a U.S. citizen for an indefinite period of time with no formal charges based on evidence that he was planning to commit an act of destruction. One point on which I agree with the authors of the Guardian letter is that the administration “put out a simplistic script of ‘good v evil.'” “This Padilla is a bad guy” is a part of that sort of script. That doesn’t mean he’s a good guy. It just means that we’re not talking about the whole picture.
To me, the fact that our public discussion doesn’t seem to address the complexity much means that we’re not really very well informed. And while academics like some of the signers of the Guardian letter do work and live in a pretty rarefied world, they certainly have information to contribute to public discourse. That doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with them—and God help us if it did—that would be no better than everyone having to agree with the administration. We’re not in either of those positions, and like I said, I’m glad for that.
I just wish that instead of the flaming, we could be talking about the real issues that the letter raises: How far should the U.S. government curtail the personal freedoms of U.S. citizens as it seeks to address the terrorist threats to our country? If you feel that freedoms have been curtailed too far, how might you productively address that? Are our legal system and our justice system adequately equipped to handle domestic terrorists?
Saying that terrorists are bad people who want to hurt us, so we should make sure they can’t may well be true. But it isn’t the whole picture.
I don’t see that there’s a simple answer here. Thanks to those addressing the issues instead of flaming others.
Quoting EnglishBen: To make my point, it is not America people dislike, but instead the administration in charge of your country.
The reason why we might have a hard time with this is because the people who demolished the WTC didn’t make such neat distinctions. Sorry, but the people who do things like this hate Americans. All Americans, whether they voted for that chimp-faced poser in the White House or not. (I can imagine you all sitting there with your mental clutches out wondering which side I’m on right now. Hold on — hates the Taleban and supports the war, but hates Bush? Does … not … compute!)
Do you think the 19 hijackers realized that there were people in those towers were who Muslims? Do you think they gave a shit that a scousin of a Muslim-raised friend of mine was in Trade Two and barely got out with his life? Supposedly, devout Muslims aren’t supposed to destroy mosques; well, there were mosques in those towers so that the Muslims who worked there could do their devotional duties — you think they cared about that? Do you think they gave a shit that many people in those towers (and many Americans in general) do think that the Palestinians are getting a raw deal and deserve a homeland, too? Do you think that they would make a distinction between an environmentally conscious member of Amnesty International walking through the parking garage of the WTC and a foamy-mouthed right-wing freak?
The terrorists made no such distinctions. I find it amusing that you are making them now. So you don’t hate all Americans, just the system. Well, join the club — many AMERICANS feel the same way. Many Americans in the WTC and the FDNY probably felt the same way. Didn’t keep them from getting burnt alive and crushed to death. Be reasonable.
Quoting Cinnamon: There have been scores more innocent Afghanis killed than there were innocent Americans.
Yeah, there were scores of Afghanis killed. By the Taleban, who have already slaughtered more of their own people than we could ever manage to achieve.
Thanks for sharing that with us Wil
It is really important that people are aware of what is being done in their name and not to be blinded by jingoistic sentiments weather they come from government or the press.
Some of the people posting should think with that thing between their ears and not the thing in their pants.
And I recommend reading “The Childrens Story” by James Clavell as a warning of what could happen if we let anybody (press, government or educators) rule our thoughts and deeds blindly.
Someone said: Why did they do this???
They were blinded by their fanatacism — we are being blinded and restricted by our media machine and government….
Wil, THANK YOU FOR PRINTING THIS, Michael Moore posted something similar on his site right after 9/11 occurred….. but I’ve seen nothing in the media.
THANK YOU BRO
— B. Martin
Wanting a safe and free world for all…
First off, thanks for posting this, Wil. At least you gave some people something to think of.
Some comments I find quite offending:
(1) “We continue to be the peace keepers of the World”
(2) “Left-wing elitists and theologists who can’t make it in the “real” world so they become teachers! Oh joy! Everything to them is various shades of grey.”
=====================
(1) Well, the world thanks you, America. I’d rather think not every north-american citizen holds this view. I know many don’t. Thanks for everything you’ve done right. Shame on you too, for you have also done wrong things. As every nation in the world. So stop considering yourself “peace keepers”, and try to collaborate with other countries in keeping that peace. We are looking forward to that, really. You are not alone there, so please don’t consider yourselves to be THE peacekeepers. Most of the world out there is trying to keep peace, too.
(2)As someone mentioned, this paragraph takes any credibility away from the poster… yes, you’re right. Everything should be either black or white. That would save us lots of headaches and thinking. Black and White. Us and Them. Good and Bad. Yeah
I am not a US citizen, but I was there, on the East Coast, on sept-11. I was deeply moved and terrified. I was sorry, and most of all, I was ashamed for humanity. Not only for terrorists, for the whole of the humankind, for a human being doing such things to human beings. There is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for such brutality as this one. I said no justification. But there are reasons behind the terrorist attacks. They don’t justify them (such an atrocity cannot be justified), but they are there. I found during my stay that most North-Americans (except my liberal and therefore elitist friends, of course) couldn’t understand why such a thing as sept-11 could have happened. Just one piece of advice: keep track of what your country is doing in foreign politics. You tend to rely too much on your politicians in this subject, and you should be much better informed. I mean that in good faith: I love the US as a country, and I think there are lots of great things there. But most of you citizens are a little US-centered. There’s a world out there, you know. The way you interact (or the way your Government interacts: it comes down to the same thing) with that world will have an effect in you, too. I wish you had not had to learn it in such a painful, terrible and disproportionate way. Reaping and sowing. Disproportionate reaping, still the sowing was there.
Regards from Europe, and let the flaming begin again
“As hard as it may be for some people to believe, the “war” that we’ve entered is not a war that can ever be won.”
Of course the actions we are taking are not as cut and dry as a formal war. There will never been an official truce, but there will eventually be a slowing in terrorist attacks and reforms. The word “war” isn’t the best way to describe what we are doing, but what do you want them to call it, “Dubya’s prolonged international military action to curb terrorist activities in the World?”. There will never be an established end to this war, you are right, and that is all the more reason to take a different approach to the classification of prisoners and the system we use to prosecute them.
And I hate to tell you this, but Saudi Arabia and the US are slipping out of their friendship. They will not let us use their bases soon for military actions, and they are also doing very little to control the terrorists residing in their country. We might buy alot of Oil from them, but they are fucked now that Russia is selling alot to us and will soon become our biggest supplier. It’s sad, but Saudi Arabia will start to shrink economically and could very well turn into the next Afghanistan over the next 20 years.
“Of course no US media is going to publish this. That would qualify as ‘taking a stand on something’.”
Gimme a break. Every paper has published Op-ed pieces about lost civil rights and the war on terrorism. The only difference is that the papers here do their best to just lay the facts out, and not slant them toward the left or right. Cmon teh guardian is just the british village voice.
“It is pointless to fight a war in which we abandon the very ideals that we are supposedly trying to protect. Period.”
That’s a very vague statement. We are not fighting for the rights of people in this war liek we were in the revolution or the civil war. We are fighting to avoid being attacked again. We are fighting for survival. Did you miss that over the past 9 months or did you just feel noble posting a sentence like that?
“Like it or not, the west is not coming under attack because we’ve always treated the rest of the world so well that they have nothing else do to.”
Believe it or not, religious fanatics need very little reason to commit large acts of violence like this. You seem to need a more concrete explanation than this for the attacks, but there isn’t one and doesn’t need to be one. THis is a war over idealogies. Fortunatley, our system of seperating church and state beats “Kill others in the name of allah”.
“We have all been told that disent is “evil” now. That we should watch what we say, toe the party line.”
Wow you are milking that line John Ashcroft said for all it’s worth, aren’t you? Cmon, criticizing the government has gone on since the beginning of time. No one is going torrest you if you post your opinion about what the government is doing. Crying wolf like this only destroys the credibility of others that share your views, so be careful.
“In addition, I don’t think these “overly idealistic” intellectuals are putting their ideals over real world issues. I think they’ve probably put a lot of thought behind this”
The obviously did not. These are people who believe any peace is better than any war. If they thought this through, they would offer solutions to how we should react and deal with attacks like this in our future. Instead they use their
“positions” to try and come across as people whose opinions matter more than others. We have way too much faith in the fairness of the views that scholars have anyway. Most college professors are nothing more than lifeling students who want to be able to preach their views to students without question. I went to college at the New School in greenwich village and was always shocked how naive the professors were and how unquestioning the students were to their views. I mean cmon, professors? People who spend most of their time on a campus are the most out of touch in the real world.
“I most fervently wish we had MORE teachers, scholars, artists and theologians. Maybe we’d have less prisons, poverty, and violence.”
…maybe not so much idealistic, Dale, as simply a real alternative to the insanity society has devolved into”
Funny, in most fanatical arab countries, scholars, teachers, and theologians hold high ranks in their societies. They use this position of authority on religion and knowledge to mold people into unquestioning, violent drones. Face it,everyone has their system of politics, no matter how “open-minded” or scholarly they seem. The position of “intellectual superior” given to professional academics is not only undeserved, it is dangerous.
“To those who seem angry at Wil for posting this, I think he is very much within his rights as a free, sane human being to agree or disagree with the ideals of government.”
Stop accusing people of disagreeing with one’s right to say something. NO ONE is arguing Wil’s right to post the letter or give his opinion. Why is it that every time a political discussion heats up, the argument used over and over again is “They have the RIGHT to say what they said”? No one said Wil didn’t have a right to say what he says. All they said was that they disagreed with him. No one argued his right to say what he said, so please stick to the argument at hand. If you mispercieve my disagreeing with Wil as me telling him he didn’thave the right to say what he said, that’s your problem. Stop jumping to alarmist conclusions.
some thoughts from ome thoughtful people…
The natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield.
“some thoughts from ome thoughtful people…”
Can you please tell us your view instead of posting the same quotes that have been used 10,000 times since 9/11? Many of them seem contradictory anyway.
In response to Janis Cortese’s post, I must say i believe that you have not got the wrong end of the stick, but rather have the wrong stick entirely. I was attempting to explain why many people have a hard time with the Us vs them mentality and the open ended policy that has been put into place that will not only continue an ultimately unwinable war, but will also curtail your own personal freedoms. I asked whoever read it to be objective and your comparisons to the opinions of the terrorist is both laudible and offensive. Further to this I was commenting more on why people have become increasingly apathetic with the post 11/9 response. I apologise if this was not conveyed fully.
I didn’t make a pledge to kill anyone in any country in any part of the world.I leave that job to the people in government who have way more info than I do. I’m pissed that anyone in the USA should give a damb what another country’s news paper’s opinion is.
Dale S:
He’s expressing his views *with* the quotes.
It’s actually been shown in studies that where there is a higher level of education, there is a reduced crime rate. We’ve got more lawyers than teachers, and our prison population is one of the highest (if not THE highest) in the Western world. So please do not deny the power of education in society just by bringing up the fact that many “fanatics” in Muslim countries are teachers.
I would suggest you take a class in Middle Eastern culture and politics. It might change your mind, it might not, but it certainly can’t hurt.
telguy:
The Guardian was publishing a letter written by people from the USA.
In addition, it’s often a good idea to know how the other side sees you. Not only might they have an outside-the-box idea, but they can help put a sense of perspective on the situation.
It seems that many people assume there was a very solid reason that we were attacked on 9/11. That this was the result of many years of American oppresion in foreign lands. I think that while perhaps terrorists convince themselves this is true, a solid reason is not needed to attack the US. Timothy McVeigh attacked a federal building because his idealogy was that large goverment was inherently evil. We stood toe to toe for 50 years with Russia while flexing the power of both of our nuclear arsenals. A 50 year long cold war fought over nothing more than ideals and ego. No one questioned why McVeigh bombed the fed building in Oklahoma City. We knew then that it was no one reason, we knew that no matter what we did, he would have an angry, violent view of the government. No one blamed the US when he killed many children. We need to get away from this idea that there is a highly evolved political reason for 9/11 and other terrorist attacks. There is not much of one. You must realize that it is a primitive human instinct to loathe those who have more power or control than you. It’s david vs. goliath. Ideal vs. Ideal. Nothing more.
“Alarmist” does seem the best choice of words here. Actually, that statement regarding the right to agree, etc. was not meant for you, Dale. It was for those who appeard to suggest that Wil should not have opened this discussion (at least from my perspective): someone even bothered to tell Wil to “shut the fuck up” as though he erred in even considering the matter. My apologies in not making the nondirection of that particular emphasis towards you clear. Only the bit about the idealisticity of an intellectually driven society had its origin from your post. And that not as criticism, but merely that such a society, if implemented with a healthy system of followed checks and balances — no one’s or group’s belief system becoming representational of the nonconcurring masses — would most likely be a very pleasant place. Of course, the probability of it actually coming to pass is not high from what I’m able to detect regarding our largely self-imposed intellectually limited human experience, but it is not something that simply could not take place if all efforts were focused. Or is it?
I brought up the nuts I know b/c some one said no on thinks all Islamics are terrorists and similar statements. I was pointing out that those statements aren’t completely accurate. I, in FACT have not made broad, ignorant assumptions particularly about people’s motivations. I have talked to these people, I have given them opportunities to explain their motivations & beliefs. They refuse to discuss the issues. All they say is “eye for an eye” and “if you (meaning me) don’t agree w/ me (one of the nuts) then you are unpatriotic & stupid”. I know that not everyone who disagrees w/ me is like any of those nuts I described. I would not ASSUME such.
Again, I was pointing out these types of people exist. I have to live w/ it everyday. It is scary. And I may not be the only one who faces people like this on a regular basis. That is why I talk about those who follow the gov’t blindly. I am face w/ an ‘us vs. them’ attitude regularly. I do get hassled for questioning the gov’t. I am called unAmerican for not supporting Bush 100%. Not necessarily by people here, but elsewhere. So I bring it up b/c it matters that there is anyone anywhere in the US who thinks like these nuts. I worry as much about what they might do as I worry about terrorists. They warp & misinterpret things and go to extremes. Yes, I know people on the other side do this, too, and I’m also afraid of them.
Also, as I said in my 1st post, I do support military action. I am concerned w/ the force of military action going too far. Has it yet? I don’t know. I think its close. I think it could. Things are being said & done by Bush and others in his administration that seem to be going that way. Maybe we won’t. I’m hoping some one in the gov’t will be able to prevent that from happening. But it is still something to be concerned about. Any president and his staff -Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal- could abuse their powers. Especially in a situation like this in which it is so easy to forget justice for revenge.
I do get flak from those who think any military action at all -even in response to the events of 9/11, also. I don’t agree w/ them 100%, either. And they say some horrible things to me, too.
Finally, there is NO JUSTIFICATION FOR ANY NATION TO HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. There are reasons to have them. But having a reason is no the same as having justification. I have been aware for a long while that we have those weapons and so many of them to deter potential & actual enemies from using the same types of weapons on us. But it is still wrong. We can’t just make them disappear, ours or theirs, I know that. But its still wrong. It is sad anyone anywhere decided they were necessary or felt pressured to have them to protect themselves. But its still wrong. Because we have them & they have them, its an awful situation.
Again, Dale S.:
There are deep reasons why there is a distrust and dislike of Western powers in the MidEast.
There are political reasons – we were up in arms over Kuwait, but did we do anything for Lebanon during its Civil War?
The US and other Western countries have screwed over the Middle East BIG TIME, ever since Napoleon. It has been an area that has been exploited for centuries by outside powers that had no idea of the inner workings of the different cultures that reside there.
I am not excusing the attacks of the 11th.
I am just saying that in order to make any firm judgements of ANY kind, you must first understand your enemy. At this point, I don’t think any of us really do.
Some people are taking this way too far. Opinions are great, No one will ever take that right from me no matter what. But to go and insult somebody for stating their opinion and then asking everybody elses is really good. And here I thought that we were all adults here. At least most of us are. Yeah I know, I sound like an ass, but this is my opinion, you can disagree with me but don’t insult me. I have that right.
“So please do not deny the power of education in society just by bringing up the fact that many “fanatics” in Muslim countries are teachers.”
You missed my point. I am not denying that college educations help people maintain a higher level of employment and lower rate of crime. What I am sayin is that anywhere in the world, people always make the assumption that scholars and academics have a higher understanding and wisdom of issues they discuss. However, no matter how well-studied or articulate someone is, their own views slant their opinions to the right or left. If I listened to every naive professor in college I would be jumping on bandwagons to legalize drugs and push for socialism. These professors were very well spoken and smart, but they always pushed their views in one political direction or another. Blindly assuming their views are balanced, right, or open-minded since they are at a higher academic level is a dangerous generalization. People have too much faith in formal education anyway. Independent thought sprouts from independent study, not just reading one sided political views.
BTW, my dad is from the middle east and I understand the area and religion quite well. Thanks for playing, though.
Go you, Angry Penguin 🙂
Thank you, Wil. Thank you.
M
I’m very sorry your higher education was that way, Dale S.
I guess you’ll have to excuse me for thinking that these people have a point. I guess their bias runs the same way mine does, and contrary to yours.
You’re right, everyone is biased. There is NO impartial judging, if you get right down to it. But does that mean that we should not read something and agree with it? Does that mean that we shouldn’t be moved by something someone says and agree with it or vice versa because of its effect on us?
…and the next person to bring up “idealistic naive young college student” can shove it up their biased ass.
I understand the need to listen to the opinions of other countries to get an idea of where the USA stands. I wans’t clear with the comment about giving a damb. I meant that the people in the artical (American citizens)should keep thier opinions to themselves in this situation. I’m a telecommunications technition, I try to stay out of diplomatic/political work, Ive got the wrong tools. As some Hollywood actors lack the same tools, I think keeping thier mouths shut would be helpful.