131 thoughts on “torture is not an american value”

1. I know that this post was about torture and the fact that we should not be engaged in it, but to back off that issue the problem come for where we’ve put ourselves in the world.
   Thomas Jefferson once said, “Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none.”
   Unfortunately, we are all twisted up in “entangling alliances” up the wazoo. Take the Iraqis for instance. We allied with the Iraqi people but not the “terrorist” Iraqis.
   The Saudis are another example: friend, right? However, most of the terrorists on the planes on September 11 were Saudis.
   Pakistan: former foe but convenient friend for the moment.
   We are also allied with Israel. However, I’m going to take a guess that most Iraqis, Pakistanis, and Saudis don’t like Israel. We will conveniently look the other way about that (for now).
   In addition, in the 1990s, Russia went from communist to democratic, which means enemy to friend, but is slowly becoming the enemy again, but not when it comes fighting terrorism. So you can call them “enemy-friend” if you want.
   Then there is Europe: long time friend, but really pissed off at us for the moment…er well, some of them. The Brits are still our friend (unless you talk to most of the British people).
   The point I’m making is that we’ve spent so much effort to be the world’s policeman that we don’t know who is friend or foe anymore, which brings me back to the original quote. I will repeat it:
   “Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations — entangling alliances with none.”
   There is a reason that our founding fathers felt this way, but we’ve forgot it along the way. Unfortunately, I’m going to venture to say that today we now have more “entangling alliances” than “friendships.”

2. Mouse… thanks. Actually it is on-topic as far as I am concerned. Most of these prisoners were not fighting against America until America invaded their country.

3. i am with you here…this administration seems to shrug of atrocities…by promoting those who condone them…this is not my america.

4. I agree that these prisoners wouldnt be there if we had not invaded their country. But we did. They lost. Now they are in our custody. This is the nature of war. Why are so many people blowing smoke over the ‘poor Iraqi people’ we’re detaining? It sounds to me like misdirected anger toward us even being there in the first place, which everyone has a right to feel. Clouding that issue with nonsense about how certain elements of combat actions are ‘unfair’ sounds both silly, and niave.

5. TO Glyn Evans:
   The prisoners at Gitmo…Guant

6. To Wil:
   I want to take a slight break from pontificating on facts, and say this:
   Back in November your comments had the tone of man who’d lost faith. (Not religious faith. I may be conservative, but not because God told me to be. Faith in your fellow Americans, the system and our ability to weahter any stoms, including bad Presidents.) I didn’t like that. I don’t really agree with your politics, being a moderate conservative, but since my friend started linking you on IRC I’ve have come to respect you as a writer and a man.
   You are thoughtful and passionate. I think that, above all else, is what draws people here to read what you write. I call myself a writer, and it burns me when I get drawn into one of your narratives. I wish I wrote half as well.
   America needs thoughtful and passionate people. I may think you have the wrong idea, but I am glad to see that you haven’t given up.

7. Phew, I am home from work and fed now so I can think straighter it would seem!
   To Mouse:
   Maybe you are right on that count. I think I am angry at the misdirection we have been fed and how people associate the original intent of the “War on Terror” with the Iraq War. Forgive me. Please continue the discussion!
   To Maverick:
   You are also a very well spoken man. I humbly agree with you about Wil’s writing as well 😀
   Now you have said this:
   “There are problems. The fact is we are holding, without charge or trial, human beings. They may be terrorists who want nothing more than to see you and everyone you know die screaming, but they are humans. We are exploiting a loophole in the law that arose from the fact that we have never really dealt with terrorists as our enemies until now. thus our laws are designed for domestic crime and military action. Terrorism fall between the two.”
   I agree halfways. And this was my original point about holding these people. We do not *know* they are terrorists. Many of the people *may* be innocent, but are being held with no charges, trial or anything. A government that sanctions this is bad news.
   A recent comment I received on my own Blog about this says (in regard to some new British anti-terror legislation):
   “Quote: The new control orders will be used, without a trial, where intelligence suggests an individual is a danger. Mr Clarke will be able to order any Briton to be detained at home, subjected to curfew or electronic tagging, or banned from meeting people or using the internet or a mobile. No evidence need be aired in court and some detainees may not know what they are accused of.”
   In my opinion, this is very similar to some of the occurences that are being *allowed* by the US Administration and people like Mr. Gonzales. My arguement is not with the US Military or it’s personnel. There will always be a few “bad apples” in any scenario. The military is doing it’s job over there. I pity them and what they are enduring, mainly because of the reasons they are there.
   Wow, I have strong political interest it would seem, though I never thought I would get emroiled so deeply in it! I think as opposed to being an avid political debater, I simply like to call what I see. Naturally, you may disagree or agree, that is what freedom and choice is all about…

8. pbarnes7, you misquoted me above. I didn’t say that. That was MouseBeast. The poster’s name and other information about the comment appears under it, not over it. I probably didn’t need to clear that up — everyone could go back and read it and see, but it bugged me.

9. Will, I’m a fan, but give me a break.
   You ask “where is my mind?” I have an idea. Same place as your head. Up your ass! Wake up and come back from the deep frontier and back into reality.

10. so much for my Star Trek humor. That should be “final frontier”

11. Glyn,
    Now we’re almost on the same page. I don’t totaly agree with your reasoning, but that’s just splitting hairs. This issue is abuse of power. Keeping people under arrest based on the ABSENSE of law is wrong. We have due process so that (in theory) the innocent can be freed.
    Link to your blog? I’m always looking for more ways to abuse the company internet.

12. I really want to say something rude to Isutiger.
    Let’s not. The rest of us can stay on the level of thought debate, ne?

13. Maverick:
    Good call on the rude fella… Some folks.
    I have an MSN Space which can be bad as you need a passport to comment and such, but I write about many different things 😀
    http://spaces.msn.com/members/zaphodsheads/
    I trackback the odd post of Wil’s as well. I am new to the whole blog thing, so I am thrilled with any responses or ideas 🙂

14. I agree with Tom Tomorrow’s take on this whole thing:
    I noticed that in this wacky satire, written a couple of years back, I have my outrageous conservative saying, “I suppose YOU want to CODDLE the terrorists, DON’T YOU? Well, I think we should STRAP THEM DOWN and TORTURE THEM!” (Or something close to that–I’m paraphrasing from memory.) This was written before the Abu Ghraib revelations. It was meant as over-the-top satire, a ludicrous exaggeration. Once again, reality outpaced satire. What once seemed unthinkable is now commonplace….it’s getting hard to satirize the world any more when real life is so crazy.
    For his full blog entry see:
    http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/mtarchives/week_2005_01_16.html#002007
    I still can’t believe Bush won (well, I mean, I know he did, but I’ll never understand it.) Oh well.

15. Glyn,
    Thanks. I may never comment (me no likie passport) but I’ve got ye on me RSS list, so I’ll prolly drop by. Anyone who writes a post on the trials and tribulations of the poor Redshirts deserves a look see.
    These are my rules…I make ’em up!

16. Maverick,
    Thanks! I update often except maybe the odd weekend.

17. and the number one reason for opposing Gonzales… the man has a lovely singing voice, and its a sad waste to stick him away in the dept of justice instead of american idol.

18. Hey,
    Just letting you know I emailed the guys at Creation to have you at the next Pasadena show. I got a reply back from Adam saying they love you and will try to get you on. And now I’m sitting next to the daughter of another one of the main guys there who will daughter pressure her dad for it 🙂 So, hopefully I’ll see you there…whenever it happens

19. I cannot believe how blind some of these people are! “Oh, you’re wrong about so and so.” Wake up, people! We’re dangerously walking down the road to Fascism and no one seems to care! But then again, the Germans were saying the same thing before Hurricane Hitler swooped down and pulverized Germany.
    Don’t say that we didn’t warn you!!!

20. I cannot believe how blind some of these people are! “Oh, you’re wrong about so and so.” Wake up, people! We’re dangerously walking down the road to Fascism and no one seems to care! But then again, the Germans were saying the same thing before Hurricane Hitler swooped down and pulverized Germany.
    Don’t say that we didn’t warn you!!!

21. FYI…………..
    Some sobering insight to our life and times….
    Published on Thursday, January 27, 2005 by CommonDreams.org
    Tell Them, ‘Because our Fathers Lied’
    by Gilbert Jordan
    “The master class has always declared the wars;
    the subject class has always fought the battles….”
    – Eugene Debs
    Almost two years after our invasion of Iraq – an occasion that was to be ‘a piece of cake,’ one that would be celebrated by Iraqis strewing flowers before our troops – it is well past the point when we should recognize that the Iraq War has become the Vietnam of the 21st Century. As in Vietnam, The Mexican War, the Spanish American War, the pretext for going to war was manufactured by misrepresenting facts and whipping up public fury, usually a simple task when that well known toxin – patriotism – is in the air.
    Many years ago Rudyard Kipling wrote in his Epitaphs of the War:
    ‘If any question why we died,
    Tell them, because our fathers lied.’
    At the same time, one of England’s most promising poets of WWI, Wilfred Owen, wrote a famous anti-war poem. After presenting a series of ghastly images relating to the death of a soldier by mustard gas, Owen tells us that if we could witness such scenes, then
    ‘My friend, you would not tell with such high zest to children ardent for some desperate glory. The old lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro Patria Mori.’
    For those of us without an Oxford education, the translation of the Latin is, “It is sweet and fitting that you should die for your country.”
    President Bush and his minions are not unique in riding to war on the back of lies. Presidents Polk, McKinley, and Johnson, among others, were equally guilty. In each case, these presidents embarked on wars that were based not on self-defense but naked aggression and a desire to expropriate what belonged rightfully to others. To mask such pillaging, it is always accompanied by an appeal to nationalism and soaring flights of rhetoric. With Iraq, President Bush kept inventing new rationales for the invasion, all of them evoking some noble purpose. And in his second inaugural speech just delivered, more of the same was dished up supposedly in the service of liberty and justice for all of the world’s citizens. Of this tactic, columnist Molly Ivins would say, “It’s like putting lipstick on a pig.”
    While the President can endlessly resort to Pollyanna summaries of the “catastrophic success” of our engagement in Iraq, the truth puts the lie to all of these fictions.
    On our side, there have been 1,417 Americans killed in this debacle, with thousands more grievously wounded, many of those facing severely diminished lives from this time on. The cost of the war, according to the ticking meter on the internet, is $152 billion dollars, with another $80 billion requested for the immediate future. Since there is no end to the war in sight, there will be no end of the hemorrhaging treasure to support it. And all of this coincides with staggering budget and trade deficits, a disappearing middle class as jobs are exported to other countries, growing poverty, and a flow of world investment to the Euro as more and more creditors lose confidence in the American dollar. Add to that the insidious erosion of liberties under the Patriot Act. But most distressing is our apparent willingness at the highest levels of government to condone torture as a means of gaining intelligence. With such a departure from international norms, it is not difficult to see that in fighting our “barbaric” enemies, we become more like them with every passing week.
    On the other side – yes, there is another side, although from coverage in American media, you would scarcely realize it – it is estimated that 100,000 Iraqis have been killed and far more than that made homeless, jobless, and futureless. Two years after ‘Mission Accomplished’ the country has descended into unspeakable chaos. In Baghdad, electricity is available only part of the day, clean water is scarce, sewage floods the streets. Fallujah has been reduced to rubble, turning about 100,000 civilians into refugees. The coming election will be meaningless, since violence has forced candidates to remain anonymous, and the act of voting itself is the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette. An assured electoral victory by the Shiite majority is an invitation to civil war, which will make the current misery in that hapless country seem pale by comparison. All the happy talk by the Bush administration does not change these facts. The Washington wrecking crew has created its own tsunami and all of us (Americans and Iraqis) are paying the price of their imperial ambitions.
    In Dwight Eisenhower’s final speech to the nation in 1953, he warned us of the power of the military-industrial complex:
    ‘Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children….This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross.’
    We, with our deluded belief that God is on our side and that our new manifest destiny is to control the world and all its assets, must reassess our priorities. Is this ill-fated adventure in Iraq (with hints of Iran to follow) worth the agony it is causing? Do we really want to bankrupt the nation and sacrifice our youth by pouring our resources into wars of folly? Do we really want to leave the rest of the world shaking their heads as they see this country diminishing itself by paying lip service to its Constitution and Bill of Rights but, at the same time, violating the very essence of those documents? It is time for us to awake from a long sleep, take a serious look at the world and this country’s place in it, and recognize that we have been manipulated by an unscrupulous band of miscreants who have been following their own agenda. And that agenda has nothing to do with democracy and liberty, at least for all of us living below the tiny sliver of privileged and tax-free aristocrats occupying the top of society’s pyramid.
    A good place to start our examination is to recognize that Kipling and Owen pulled back the curtain from myths and lies that promote wars. In a real democracy, we should demand transparent government and accountability. Until we do, we are in danger of sacrificing our 225 year old experiment in self-rule. There is a very thin line between democracy and despotism and at the moment we are standing on the razor’s edge.
    Gilbert Jordan is a retired English Professor from Monroe Community college, Rochester, NY and has been active in the anti-war movement. He resides in in Wyoming, NY. Gilbert can be reached at [email protected].
    ###

22. FYI…………..
    Some sobering insight to our life and times….
    Published on Thursday, January 27, 2005 by CommonDreams.org
    Tell Them, ‘Because our Fathers Lied’
    by Gilbert Jordan
    “The master class has always declared the wars;
    the subject class has always fought the battles….”
    – Eugene Debs
    Almost two years after our invasion of Iraq – an occasion that was to be ‘a piece of cake,’ one that would be celebrated by Iraqis strewing flowers before our troops – it is well past the point when we should recognize that the Iraq War has become the Vietnam of the 21st Century. As in Vietnam, The Mexican War, the Spanish American War, the pretext for going to war was manufactured by misrepresenting facts and whipping up public fury, usually a simple task when that well known toxin – patriotism – is in the air.
    Many years ago Rudyard Kipling wrote in his Epitaphs of the War:
    ‘If any question why we died,
    Tell them, because our fathers lied.’
    At the same time, one of England’s most promising poets of WWI, Wilfred Owen, wrote a famous anti-war poem. After presenting a series of ghastly images relating to the death of a soldier by mustard gas, Owen tells us that if we could witness such scenes, then
    ‘My friend, you would not tell with such high zest to children ardent for some desperate glory. The old lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro Patria Mori.’
    For those of us without an Oxford education, the translation of the Latin is, “It is sweet and fitting that you should die for your country.”
    President Bush and his minions are not unique in riding to war on the back of lies. Presidents Polk, McKinley, and Johnson, among others, were equally guilty. In each case, these presidents embarked on wars that were based not on self-defense but naked aggression and a desire to expropriate what belonged rightfully to others. To mask such pillaging, it is always accompanied by an appeal to nationalism and soaring flights of rhetoric. With Iraq, President Bush kept inventing new rationales for the invasion, all of them evoking some noble purpose. And in his second inaugural speech just delivered, more of the same was dished up supposedly in the service of liberty and justice for all of the world’s citizens. Of this tactic, columnist Molly Ivins would say, “It’s like putting lipstick on a pig.”
    While the President can endlessly resort to Pollyanna summaries of the “catastrophic success” of our engagement in Iraq, the truth puts the lie to all of these fictions.
    On our side, there have been 1,417 Americans killed in this debacle, with thousands more grievously wounded, many of those facing severely diminished lives from this time on. The cost of the war, according to the ticking meter on the internet, is $152 billion dollars, with another $80 billion requested for the immediate future. Since there is no end to the war in sight, there will be no end of the hemorrhaging treasure to support it. And all of this coincides with staggering budget and trade deficits, a disappearing middle class as jobs are exported to other countries, growing poverty, and a flow of world investment to the Euro as more and more creditors lose confidence in the American dollar. Add to that the insidious erosion of liberties under the Patriot Act. But most distressing is our apparent willingness at the highest levels of government to condone torture as a means of gaining intelligence. With such a departure from international norms, it is not difficult to see that in fighting our “barbaric” enemies, we become more like them with every passing week.
    On the other side – yes, there is another side, although from coverage in American media, you would scarcely realize it – it is estimated that 100,000 Iraqis have been killed and far more than that made homeless, jobless, and futureless. Two years after ‘Mission Accomplished’ the country has descended into unspeakable chaos. In Baghdad, electricity is available only part of the day, clean water is scarce, sewage floods the streets. Fallujah has been reduced to rubble, turning about 100,000 civilians into refugees. The coming election will be meaningless, since violence has forced candidates to remain anonymous, and the act of voting itself is the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette. An assured electoral victory by the Shiite majority is an invitation to civil war, which will make the current misery in that hapless country seem pale by comparison. All the happy talk by the Bush administration does not change these facts. The Washington wrecking crew has created its own tsunami and all of us (Americans and Iraqis) are paying the price of their imperial ambitions.
    In Dwight Eisenhower’s final speech to the nation in 1953, he warned us of the power of the military-industrial complex:
    ‘Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children….This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross.’
    We, with our deluded belief that God is on our side and that our new manifest destiny is to control the world and all its assets, must reassess our priorities. Is this ill-fated adventure in Iraq (with hints of Iran to follow) worth the agony it is causing? Do we really want to bankrupt the nation and sacrifice our youth by pouring our resources into wars of folly? Do we really want to leave the rest of the world shaking their heads as they see this country diminishing itself by paying lip service to its Constitution and Bill of Rights but, at the same time, violating the very essence of those documents? It is time for us to awake from a long sleep, take a serious look at the world and this country’s place in it, and recognize that we have been manipulated by an unscrupulous band of miscreants who have been following their own agenda. And that agenda has nothing to do with democracy and liberty, at least for all of us living below the tiny sliver of privileged and tax-free aristocrats occupying the top of society’s pyramid.
    A good place to start our examination is to recognize that Kipling and Owen pulled back the curtain from myths and lies that promote wars. In a real democracy, we should demand transparent government and accountability. Until we do, we are in danger of sacrificing our 225 year old experiment in self-rule. There is a very thin line between democracy and despotism and at the moment we are standing on the razor’s edge.
    Gilbert Jordan is a retired English Professor from Monroe Community college, Rochester, NY and has been active in the anti-war movement. He resides in in Wyoming, NY. Gilbert can be reached at [email protected].
    ###

23. I guess what I’m stuck on is, “What do you hope to accomplish?” If Gonzalez is kept out, what makes you think his replacement will be any different?
    Alberto Gonzalez was just a flunky following orders. He didn’t suddenly jump up in class, waving his hand and shouting “Oooh! Oooh! I’ve got a great idea!” He merely completed the assignment he was given.
    He is the symptom, not the disease.

24. I cannot believe how blind some of these people are! “Oh, you’re wrong about so and so.” Wake up, people! We’re dangerously walking down the road to Fascism and no one seems to care! But then again, the Germans were saying the same thing before Hurricane Hitler swooped down and pulverized Germany.
    Don’t say that we didn’t warn you!!!

25. I cannot believe how blind some of these people are! “Oh, you’re wrong about so and so.” Wake up, people! We’re dangerously walking down the road to Fascism and no one seems to care! But then again, the Germans were saying the same thing before Hurricane Hitler swooped down and pulverized Germany.
    Don’t say that we didn’t warn you!!!

26. I cannot believe how blind some of these people are! “Oh, you’re wrong about so and so.” Wake up, people! We’re dangerously walking down the road to Fascism and no one seems to care! But then again, the Germans were saying the same thing before Hurricane Hitler swooped down and pulverized Germany.
    Don’t say that we didn’t warn you!!!

27. OK, I can accept you’re against his confirmation. But instead of bitching about it, offer an acceptable solution.

28. FYI…………..
    Some sobering insight to our life and times….
    Published on Thursday, January 27, 2005 by CommonDreams.org
    Tell Them, ‘Because our Fathers Lied’
    by Gilbert Jordan
    “The master class has always declared the wars;
    the subject class has always fought the battles….”
    – Eugene Debs
    Almost two years after our invasion of Iraq – an occasion that was to be ‘a piece of cake,’ one that would be celebrated by Iraqis strewing flowers before our troops – it is well past the point when we should recognize that the Iraq War has become the Vietnam of the 21st Century. As in Vietnam, The Mexican War, the Spanish American War, the pretext for going to war was manufactured by misrepresenting facts and whipping up public fury, usually a simple task when that well known toxin – patriotism – is in the air.
    Many years ago Rudyard Kipling wrote in his Epitaphs of the War:
    ‘If any question why we died,
    Tell them, because our fathers lied.’
    At the same time, one of England’s most promising poets of WWI, Wilfred Owen, wrote a famous anti-war poem. After presenting a series of ghastly images relating to the death of a soldier by mustard gas, Owen tells us that if we could witness such scenes, then
    ‘My friend, you would not tell with such high zest to children ardent for some desperate glory. The old lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro Patria Mori.’
    For those of us without an Oxford education, the translation of the Latin is, “It is sweet and fitting that you should die for your country.”
    President Bush and his minions are not unique in riding to war on the back of lies. Presidents Polk, McKinley, and Johnson, among others, were equally guilty. In each case, these presidents embarked on wars that were based not on self-defense but naked aggression and a desire to expropriate what belonged rightfully to others. To mask such pillaging, it is always accompanied by an appeal to nationalism and soaring flights of rhetoric. With Iraq, President Bush kept inventing new rationales for the invasion, all of them evoking some noble purpose. And in his second inaugural speech just delivered, more of the same was dished up supposedly in the service of liberty and justice for all of the world’s citizens. Of this tactic, columnist Molly Ivins would say, “It’s like putting lipstick on a pig.”
    While the President can endlessly resort to Pollyanna summaries of the “catastrophic success” of our engagement in Iraq, the truth puts the lie to all of these fictions.
    On our side, there have been 1,417 Americans killed in this debacle, with thousands more grievously wounded, many of those facing severely diminished lives from this time on. The cost of the war, according to the ticking meter on the internet, is $152 billion dollars, with another $80 billion requested for the immediate future. Since there is no end to the war in sight, there will be no end of the hemorrhaging treasure to support it. And all of this coincides with staggering budget and trade deficits, a disappearing middle class as jobs are exported to other countries, growing poverty, and a flow of world investment to the Euro as more and more creditors lose confidence in the American dollar. Add to that the insidious erosion of liberties under the Patriot Act. But most distressing is our apparent willingness at the highest levels of government to condone torture as a means of gaining intelligence. With such a departure from international norms, it is not difficult to see that in fighting our “barbaric” enemies, we become more like them with every passing week.
    On the other side – yes, there is another side, although from coverage in American media, you would scarcely realize it – it is estimated that 100,000 Iraqis have been killed and far more than that made homeless, jobless, and futureless. Two years after ‘Mission Accomplished’ the country has descended into unspeakable chaos. In Baghdad, electricity is available only part of the day, clean water is scarce, sewage floods the streets. Fallujah has been reduced to rubble, turning about 100,000 civilians into refugees. The coming election will be meaningless, since violence has forced candidates to remain anonymous, and the act of voting itself is the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette. An assured electoral victory by the Shiite majority is an invitation to civil war, which will make the current misery in that hapless country seem pale by comparison. All the happy talk by the Bush administration does not change these facts. The Washington wrecking crew has created its own tsunami and all of us (Americans and Iraqis) are paying the price of their imperial ambitions.
    In Dwight Eisenhower’s final speech to the nation in 1953, he warned us of the power of the military-industrial complex:
    ‘Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children….This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross.’
    We, with our deluded belief that God is on our side and that our new manifest destiny is to control the world and all its assets, must reassess our priorities. Is this ill-fated adventure in Iraq (with hints of Iran to follow) worth the agony it is causing? Do we really want to bankrupt the nation and sacrifice our youth by pouring our resources into wars of folly? Do we really want to leave the rest of the world shaking their heads as they see this country diminishing itself by paying lip service to its Constitution and Bill of Rights but, at the same time, violating the very essence of those documents? It is time for us to awake from a long sleep, take a serious look at the world and this country’s place in it, and recognize that we have been manipulated by an unscrupulous band of miscreants who have been following their own agenda. And that agenda has nothing to do with democracy and liberty, at least for all of us living below the tiny sliver of privileged and tax-free aristocrats occupying the top of society’s pyramid.
    A good place to start our examination is to recognize that Kipling and Owen pulled back the curtain from myths and lies that promote wars. In a real democracy, we should demand transparent government and accountability. Until we do, we are in danger of sacrificing our 225 year old experiment in self-rule. There is a very thin line between democracy and despotism and at the moment we are standing on the razor’s edge.
    Gilbert Jordan is a retired English Professor from Monroe Community college, Rochester, NY and has been active in the anti-war movement. He resides in in Wyoming, NY. Gilbert can be reached at [email protected].
    ###

29. FYI…………..
    Some sobering insight to our life and times….
    Published on Thursday, January 27, 2005 by CommonDreams.org
    Tell Them, ‘Because our Fathers Lied’
    by Gilbert Jordan
    “The master class has always declared the wars;
    the subject class has always fought the battles….”
    – Eugene Debs
    Almost two years after our invasion of Iraq – an occasion that was to be ‘a piece of cake,’ one that would be celebrated by Iraqis strewing flowers before our troops – it is well past the point when we should recognize that the Iraq War has become the Vietnam of the 21st Century. As in Vietnam, The Mexican War, the Spanish American War, the pretext for going to war was manufactured by misrepresenting facts and whipping up public fury, usually a simple task when that well known toxin – patriotism – is in the air.
    Many years ago Rudyard Kipling wrote in his Epitaphs of the War:
    ‘If any question why we died,
    Tell them, because our fathers lied.’
    At the same time, one of England’s most promising poets of WWI, Wilfred Owen, wrote a famous anti-war poem. After presenting a series of ghastly images relating to the death of a soldier by mustard gas, Owen tells us that if we could witness such scenes, then
    ‘My friend, you would not tell with such high zest to children ardent for some desperate glory. The old lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro Patria Mori.’
    For those of us without an Oxford education, the translation of the Latin is, “It is sweet and fitting that you should die for your country.”
    President Bush and his minions are not unique in riding to war on the back of lies. Presidents Polk, McKinley, and Johnson, among others, were equally guilty. In each case, these presidents embarked on wars that were based not on self-defense but naked aggression and a desire to expropriate what belonged rightfully to others. To mask such pillaging, it is always accompanied by an appeal to nationalism and soaring flights of rhetoric. With Iraq, President Bush kept inventing new rationales for the invasion, all of them evoking some noble purpose. And in his second inaugural speech just delivered, more of the same was dished up supposedly in the service of liberty and justice for all of the world’s citizens. Of this tactic, columnist Molly Ivins would say, “It’s like putting lipstick on a pig.”
    While the President can endlessly resort to Pollyanna summaries of the “catastrophic success” of our engagement in Iraq, the truth puts the lie to all of these fictions.
    On our side, there have been 1,417 Americans killed in this debacle, with thousands more grievously wounded, many of those facing severely diminished lives from this time on. The cost of the war, according to the ticking meter on the internet, is $152 billion dollars, with another $80 billion requested for the immediate future. Since there is no end to the war in sight, there will be no end of the hemorrhaging treasure to support it. And all of this coincides with staggering budget and trade deficits, a disappearing middle class as jobs are exported to other countries, growing poverty, and a flow of world investment to the Euro as more and more creditors lose confidence in the American dollar. Add to that the insidious erosion of liberties under the Patriot Act. But most distressing is our apparent willingness at the highest levels of government to condone torture as a means of gaining intelligence. With such a departure from international norms, it is not difficult to see that in fighting our “barbaric” enemies, we become more like them with every passing week.
    On the other side – yes, there is another side, although from coverage in American media, you would scarcely realize it – it is estimated that 100,000 Iraqis have been killed and far more than that made homeless, jobless, and futureless. Two years after ‘Mission Accomplished’ the country has descended into unspeakable chaos. In Baghdad, electricity is available only part of the day, clean water is scarce, sewage floods the streets. Fallujah has been reduced to rubble, turning about 100,000 civilians into refugees. The coming election will be meaningless, since violence has forced candidates to remain anonymous, and the act of voting itself is the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette. An assured electoral victory by the Shiite majority is an invitation to civil war, which will make the current misery in that hapless country seem pale by comparison. All the happy talk by the Bush administration does not change these facts. The Washington wrecking crew has created its own tsunami and all of us (Americans and Iraqis) are paying the price of their imperial ambitions.
    In Dwight Eisenhower’s final speech to the nation in 1953, he warned us of the power of the military-industrial complex:
    ‘Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children….This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross.’
    We, with our deluded belief that God is on our side and that our new manifest destiny is to control the world and all its assets, must reassess our priorities. Is this ill-fated adventure in Iraq (with hints of Iran to follow) worth the agony it is causing? Do we really want to bankrupt the nation and sacrifice our youth by pouring our resources into wars of folly? Do we really want to leave the rest of the world shaking their heads as they see this country diminishing itself by paying lip service to its Constitution and Bill of Rights but, at the same time, violating the very essence of those documents? It is time for us to awake from a long sleep, take a serious look at the world and this country’s place in it, and recognize that we have been manipulated by an unscrupulous band of miscreants who have been following their own agenda. And that agenda has nothing to do with democracy and liberty, at least for all of us living below the tiny sliver of privileged and tax-free aristocrats occupying the top of society’s pyramid.
    A good place to start our examination is to recognize that Kipling and Owen pulled back the curtain from myths and lies that promote wars. In a real democracy, we should demand transparent government and accountability. Until we do, we are in danger of sacrificing our 225 year old experiment in self-rule. There is a very thin line between democracy and despotism and at the moment we are standing on the razor’s edge.
    Gilbert Jordan is a retired English Professor from Monroe Community college, Rochester, NY and has been active in the anti-war movement. He resides in in Wyoming, NY. Gilbert can be reached at [email protected].
    ###

30. FYI…………..
    Some sobering insight to our life and times….
    Published on Thursday, January 27, 2005 by CommonDreams.org
    Tell Them, ‘Because our Fathers Lied’
    by Gilbert Jordan
    “The master class has always declared the wars;
    the subject class has always fought the battles….”
    – Eugene Debs
    Almost two years after our invasion of Iraq – an occasion that was to be ‘a piece of cake,’ one that would be celebrated by Iraqis strewing flowers before our troops – it is well past the point when we should recognize that the Iraq War has become the Vietnam of the 21st Century. As in Vietnam, The Mexican War, the Spanish American War, the pretext for going to war was manufactured by misrepresenting facts and whipping up public fury, usually a simple task when that well known toxin – patriotism – is in the air.
    Many years ago Rudyard Kipling wrote in his Epitaphs of the War:
    ‘If any question why we died,
    Tell them, because our fathers lied.’
    At the same time, one of England’s most promising poets of WWI, Wilfred Owen, wrote a famous anti-war poem. After presenting a series of ghastly images relating to the death of a soldier by mustard gas, Owen tells us that if we could witness such scenes, then
    ‘My friend, you would not tell with such high zest to children ardent for some desperate glory. The old lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro Patria Mori.’
    For those of us without an Oxford education, the translation of the Latin is, “It is sweet and fitting that you should die for your country.”
    President Bush and his minions are not unique in riding to war on the back of lies. Presidents Polk, McKinley, and Johnson, among others, were equally guilty. In each case, these presidents embarked on wars that were based not on self-defense but naked aggression and a desire to expropriate what belonged rightfully to others. To mask such pillaging, it is always accompanied by an appeal to nationalism and soaring flights of rhetoric. With Iraq, President Bush kept inventing new rationales for the invasion, all of them evoking some noble purpose. And in his second inaugural speech just delivered, more of the same was dished up supposedly in the service of liberty and justice for all of the world’s citizens. Of this tactic, columnist Molly Ivins would say, “It’s like putting lipstick on a pig.”
    While the President can endlessly resort to Pollyanna summaries of the “catastrophic success” of our engagement in Iraq, the truth puts the lie to all of these fictions.
    On our side, there have been 1,417 Americans killed in this debacle, with thousands more grievously wounded, many of those facing severely diminished lives from this time on. The cost of the war, according to the ticking meter on the internet, is $152 billion dollars, with another $80 billion requested for the immediate future. Since there is no end to the war in sight, there will be no end of the hemorrhaging treasure to support it. And all of this coincides with staggering budget and trade deficits, a disappearing middle class as jobs are exported to other countries, growing poverty, and a flow of world investment to the Euro as more and more creditors lose confidence in the American dollar. Add to that the insidious erosion of liberties under the Patriot Act. But most distressing is our apparent willingness at the highest levels of government to condone torture as a means of gaining intelligence. With such a departure from international norms, it is not difficult to see that in fighting our “barbaric” enemies, we become more like them with every passing week.
    On the other side – yes, there is another side, although from coverage in American media, you would scarcely realize it – it is estimated that 100,000 Iraqis have been killed and far more than that made homeless, jobless, and futureless. Two years after ‘Mission Accomplished’ the country has descended into unspeakable chaos. In Baghdad, electricity is available only part of the day, clean water is scarce, sewage floods the streets. Fallujah has been reduced to rubble, turning about 100,000 civilians into refugees. The coming election will be meaningless, since violence has forced candidates to remain anonymous, and the act of voting itself is the equivalent of playing Russian Roulette. An assured electoral victory by the Shiite majority is an invitation to civil war, which will make the current misery in that hapless country seem pale by comparison. All the happy talk by the Bush administration does not change these facts. The Washington wrecking crew has created its own tsunami and all of us (Americans and Iraqis) are paying the price of their imperial ambitions.
    In Dwight Eisenhower’s final speech to the nation in 1953, he warned us of the power of the military-industrial complex:
    ‘Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children….This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross.’
    We, with our deluded belief that God is on our side and that our new manifest destiny is to control the world and all its assets, must reassess our priorities. Is this ill-fated adventure in Iraq (with hints of Iran to follow) worth the agony it is causing? Do we really want to bankrupt the nation and sacrifice our youth by pouring our resources into wars of folly? Do we really want to leave the rest of the world shaking their heads as they see this country diminishing itself by paying lip service to its Constitution and Bill of Rights but, at the same time, violating the very essence of those documents? It is time for us to awake from a long sleep, take a serious look at the world and this country’s place in it, and recognize that we have been manipulated by an unscrupulous band of miscreants who have been following their own agenda. And that agenda has nothing to do with democracy and liberty, at least for all of us living below the tiny sliver of privileged and tax-free aristocrats occupying the top of society’s pyramid.
    A good place to start our examination is to recognize that Kipling and Owen pulled back the curtain from myths and lies that promote wars. In a real democracy, we should demand transparent government and accountability. Until we do, we are in danger of sacrificing our 225 year old experiment in self-rule. There is a very thin line between democracy and despotism and at the moment we are standing on the razor’s edge.
    Gilbert Jordan is a retired English Professor from Monroe Community college, Rochester, NY and has been active in the anti-war movement. He resides in in Wyoming, NY. Gilbert can be reached at [email protected].
    ###

32. Rich:OK, I can accept you’re against his confirmation. But instead of bitching about it, offer an acceptable solution.
    Is this a new RNC talking point? I’ve been reading and hearing this “if you think it’s so bad, why don’t you tell us how to fix it” mantra an awful lot this week.
    I’m not being a dick — I’m genuinely curious. I think it’s too much of a coincidence that this sentiment has suddenly exploded all over the place.
    To answer: It’s not my job to come up with an alternative. That’s President Bush’s job. I have laid out the reasons I oppose Gonzales, and why I believe the congress should not confirm him. It’s not my responsibility to offer a replacement nominee.

33. Oh, and if you’ve got something really long to quote, or reference, would you please quote a small bit and link the rest?
    I can’t tell you all how happy I am that this thread is actually useful to read. Good on ya.

34. In WW2 it was the hanging tree. The Nazis strung up partisans. Later, partisans hung traitors from this tree. It was left standing as a monument to those injustices. After April 25, 1986 the steam explosion which blew a 1,000 ton cap off a nuclear containment vessel in Chernobyl, the tree became a memorial for that tragedy. It has since fallen and was replaced with an aluminum tree, kinda like a shrine to things that never die…like mass stupidity.
    Check these new allegations out at the Guantanamo prison.

35. Wow, thread, look at you! They grow up so fast.
    I honestly can’t tell where this discussion stands at the moment, but I noticed a bit of a comment by Maverick that I’d like to address. Maverick, please don’t get the idea that I’m picking on you; I only pursue this because I’ve seen the same thing stated in many other places.
    Maverick said “The prisoners at Gitmo…Guant

36. Wil: I think you’re absolutely right that it is not our job to come up with an alternative. It’s the elected administration’s job to appoint these folks. This is why we have the elected body; to make these decisions on behalf of the citizens they represent.
    They are elected by a majority, and their decisions usually relfect the will of that majority. Unfortunately, with the country so closely divided, that majority is pretty slight. This is leaving an almost equal amount of citizens who feel disparaged by most of the administration’s decisions.
    The prevalent response from the right sounds pretty damn weak to me as well. If I were sitting in the majority, defending one of their decisions, I wouldnt throw up a weak-ass statement like “Well, why dont you find a solution? Nyah Nyah Nyah!” There’s no ‘solution’ to be found. The majority is merely trying to appoint their ‘solution’, and it’s a shame that so many people have a problem with it.
    ~~(__)8>

37. Sorry about the length. Verbose isn

38. On a lighter note, Dick would rather be ice fishing. You can take the boy out of the UP, butcha can’t take da Yooper outta da boy, eh? Aw jeez, you betcha.

39. SIDE NOTE:
    I cant help but point out something I just saw on a cable news channel (to remain anonymous).
    A dem strategist was asked why she thought the democrats in congress were putting up so much of a fight against Condi Rice’s appointment. The person figured that these people were obviously going to be of like mind to the president, and that if he wanted to surround himself with that, it was his business. I guess on some level I tend to agree with that.
    The strategist’s response was the typical, weak-ass, non-sequtor, democratic response. She immediately pointed out a common opinion that Dr. Rice was one of the architects of the misinformation that led to our invasion in Iraq. Her response had nothing to do with the question. She just deflected the question and responded instead with a shot. Apparantly neither side can stick to the ‘facts’ anymore. I fear that this whole country is just ‘spinning’ off into infinity.
    I figure that if i’m going to discuss a weak-ass Republican talking point, I might as well point out a Democratic one as well. Fair and balanced, I always say…oops…so much for the ‘anonymous’ thing.
    ~~(__)8>

40. Interesting point Vlad. I dropped the ball on that one. But that’s why I love these little opportunites. It helps me to find the holes in my knowledge and stregnthen my reasoning.
    The next question is: Are Iraqi “combatants” actually covered by the Convention? I proposed, based on my interpretation of the text that I linked to earlier, that they aren’t. They lack a governing body and clear chain of command. Still the Convention may have provisions that I missed.
    The question that follows that is: Are Iraqi fighters being shipped to Gitmo? This one I don’t have an answer for. I’ll have to see what I can dig up.

41. Normally, digs at Fox New bug me, because I can’t help but note how left baised the other News services are. But that one gave me the giggles, Mouse.
    I give you a 9 for delivery, on a scale of one to five.

42. To RICH
    “OK, I can accept you’re against his confirmation. But instead of bitching about it, offer an acceptable solution”
    If a car company, was having low sales from consumers due to a particular model type, then it would not be expected of the consumer to ask the car manufactuter to off and suggest an alternative model, would it? NO! Instead, the car company would have to come up with an alternative model that would be more popular. If the car company cannot produce an alternative model then a competing company will.
    In case any one didnt get my “subtle” message, if President Bush can’t provide a suitable alternative to the nomination on his own, then his administration should stand down and let the opposition give it a try, cos thats how democracy works…

43. Thanks Maverick, I’ve enjoyed your interpretations on things throughout this post. For the record, I’m a Fox News junkie (I was watching it, to see the report, I should point out). I, too, am sick of the highly left biased reporting on the other channels.
    Also, huge thanks to Wil for being such a compelling writer and presence so as to attract so many intelligent people, and incite such thoughtful debate. Buy yourself a nice flowing robe, and you’d have a cult, I swear.
    Ok, this is turning into a lovefest. To quote Harvey Keitel: “Let’s not start sucking each other’s dicks just yet!” Im getting absolutely no work done today, and I truly dont care.
    (I can’t resist): If you agree/disagree with the Mouse please send your comments to [email protected], [email protected]; name & town, name & town, name & town, if you wish to aupine. Remember, no bloviating…that’s Wil’s job!
    hehe..I so suck… ~~(__)8>

44. Wait, wait, wait, Noel! The President doesn’t need to do anything, because the majority of the country (same majority that elected him BTW) does NOT have a problem with his appointment. This is another case of a large, extremely vocal, but still a /minority/, forgetting that they are indeed, the /minority/. The time for the left to make any changes was a few months ago, and the majority has spoken.
    ~~(__)8>
    If people want to make serious changes, I suggest we do as Maverick previously stated. Vote those suckers out of office. THAT’S how democracy works.

45. Wait, wait, wait, Noel! The President doesn’t need to do anything, because the majority of the country (same majority that elected him BTW) does NOT have a problem with his appointment. This is another case of a large, extremely vocal, but still a minority, forgetting that they are indeed, the minority. The time for the left to make any changes was a few months ago, and the majority has spoken.
    If people want to make serious changes, I suggest we do as Maverick previously stated. Vote those suckers out of office. THAT’S how democracy works.
    ~~(__)8>

46. Hi and welcome to Vlad Sticks His Ass Out. Tonight I’ll be poking that thing over there with a stick. It might be a happy puppy, or a rabid skunk. Either way, it’s probably off-topic. Ready? Good.
    Maverick, since you’re an avowed righty and apparently a good sport, and because you’ve mentioned the leftward lean of the media more than once, please point out the liberal media for me, and show your work. In the interest of fairness, let’s leave out Fox News and CBS.
    I only ask because I really don’t see it, and in an age when the majority of the print/tv/radio market is owned by a dozen or so conglomerates, the idea that the media is liberal is a tough sell to me. In fact, most of the jabbering heads that I hear condemning the horrible liberal media are in the employ of that selfsame media, in one way or another.
    For extra credit, and in the interest of a bigger stink: please explain why anything named Clinton is bad (if in fact you feel that way). And remember, this is for posterity, so… be honest. How do you feel? 😉

47. My apologies for the double post. I have a hare trigger on my mouse clicker (double rodent entendre). Still not sure why it posted differently both times.
    I have further thoughts regarding my last post. To refrain from cluttering Wil’s webspace further, you can find them by clicking on my name. Feel free to slam me like a jager shot.
    ~~(__)8>

48. Wil, there’s a database of bloggers who’ve put up statements against Gonzales. Kos noted that he hadn’t been able to keep up with everyone who let him know they had a statement up about this, and I saw that you’re not currently on the list. There’s a form there to add your blog. So, if you want to be counted among the 322+, there’s your link!

49. In ireland, even if the taoiseach (irish word for prime minister)was elected by an overwhelming majority, if he/she was incapable of making appropiate decisions then his own party would force him to resign for the good of the party and the country. Thats democracy works round the world outside of america. On side note, some of histories darkest days in the 20th century were due to leaders who were elected by an overwhelming majority and given a free license to do as they please… yeah actually, I think that had something to do with WW2 didnt it???
    Taking on board your comments about most of the complaints coming from the minority of people, while that may or may not be true, in his accpetance speech the day after his relection, president bush stated that he would help heal the wounds of the last 4 years both domestically and internationally. With this appointment, he is simply not doing so
    Anyways, I think its getting away from the point of Alberto Gonzales being totally unsuitable for the job. Not from a political aspect but on a purely moral one, you cannot elect a guy who has found basically a loop hole in international law to basically run “glorified” torture camps on people whose “terrorist classification” is vague at best

50. CNN, MSNBC (particularly Slate), and Headline News. These are the most rampant culprits. The left lean is subtle, it tends to be in degrees of spin. The most blatant examples occurred during the actual Iraq War, on about Days 20 to 21. These three services reported often, on those days, that Coalition Forces (read US forces) were stalled and failing to advance on Baghdad. They did note that the Army claimed otherwise, but the reported fairly strongly that it appeared that the offensive wasn

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