PayPal finally speaks

After two weeks of phone calls and e-mails, I finally got an e-mail back this morning from the executive escalations department at PayPal.

Here’s the money shot:

regarding the system is not passing the item number or the title through with the address and buyer’s information on multiple shipping orders, we did not have a known issue registered for this concern or a solution, so we submitted this issue to our technical department so they can assist. Unfortunately they do not have a timeframe for when this will be resolved.

Translation: we don’t know why this is happening, we’re not going to help you troubleshoot it, and you’re fucked. Thanks for your tens of thousands of dollars of business over the last seven years, sucker.

What this means, practically, is that the problem is somehow my fault, but I don’t know how to fix it. Until I can figure out exactly why this system works for everyone else in the world and not for me, I effectively have a store that can sell one item from one shelf, and that’s not really going to work for me.

So, Occam’s Razor says that there’s something screwy with my server configuration, my html or php code, or something else at Monolith Press, right? There’s something going on that’s preventing the form at Monolith Press from passing all the appropriate information along to PayPal’s order processing system, right?

Actually, no. When I export my account history to a CSV file, to check and make sure that all the appropriate fields are being filled in, the item number and description are right there, exactly as I entered them when I created the form.

So Occam’s Razor really says that I am doing something wrong, but I really have no fucking idea what it is or how to solve it, and I have no idea who to turn to for help, now. This is the most frustrating thing in the world.

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56 thoughts on “PayPal finally speaks”

  2. Perhaps it’s time to get yourself a PO Box and let us send money directly to you.
    Screw PayPal.
    You know we’d all go for it!
    Must
    Have
    Limited
    Edition
    Book
    NOW

  3. PayPal does not have the best track record for customer support. There’s a whole huge long story of how much dickhead-ness they gave the owners of the Something Awful forums (yeah, I’m a goon…) when the members tried to donate to Katrina back in ’04-’05.
    Anyway, my point is, maybe there’s a better way to do this than through PayPal?

  4. Seriously, there are a lot of pretty easy options for someone of moderate technical savvy like you. Consider setting up an Amazon zShop or a Yahoo store, or figure out how Google payments works, let someone else handle taking credit cards and the money bit for a very small cut, and be able to actually sell your book.
    From my experiences and stories I’ve heard about paypal, this is a dead end. They won’t fix problems. They honestly aren’t interested in customer service. I predict they’ll someday regret this, but that day isn’t soon.

  5. I am so sorry to hear about your PayPal problems! I hope you can figure out the problem soon or move to another online store set-up.
    It’s really upsetting seeing how hard you’re working to resolve it and yet nothing happens. I hope you figure it out soon. (For your sake.)
    Take care of yourself!
    Cheers!

  6. Wil,
    Given that you have a specific person on this, I can’t imagine that this would be of any help, but…
    Is it possible that the current form ISN’T sending the correct item number through? Perhaps that’s screwed up, and if you only have one item, then it falls through as the default? Then when you add the second item, it still passes through the same default number?
    Is it possible that this is a 0-based vs. 1-based indexing system problem? In other words, PayPal numbers items starting from “0”, but your form starts with “1”?
    Trying to track this down, it might be worth engineering a hidden, fake form that inputs a number to PayPal’s ordering system that doesn’t exist. You can then pull your account history and see what comes out the other end; maybe that might be illuminating?

  7. I had the same thought, Craig. I’m working on a troubleshooting flow now, so hopefully I can eliminate possible causes and at least narrow it down.
    I wonder if my order number is too long, if it can only be numbers and not characters, or if it can’t have hyphens and other special characters in it, but there’s nothing at all in PayPal’s help system that indicates if they have any of these restrictions.
    I’m also looking at Yahoo shopping, Google Checkout, and Amazon zShops as possible short- (and likely long-) term solutions.

  8. Not sure if this will help, but can you get some escalation by calling eBay headquarters at 408-376-7425 (a number that took me a while to track down when I needed to give them some grief)? Leaving a message with a high-ranking executive didn’t get me a call-back from said executive, but I did hear back promptly from the customer service dept. that was blowing me off up until that point.
    Hope this is helpful.

  10. At the moment, Yahoo shopping appears to have the best monthly rates and transaction fees. They want 1.5% and $40 a month, compared to Amazon’s 8% and $54 a month. Google isn’t doing it for me, either.

  11. Wil,
    At the very least you can export the data Paypal isn’t passing through to the shipping options. Seems like it’s not a MP problem. You can try to shrink your items numbers to something simple… “DAYSPB” and see if it works. My guess is that Paypal is just flawed.
    You could also try the Fulfillment by Amazon program. http://www.amazon.com/gp/seller/fba/fulfillment-by-amazon.html
    Takes a small fee for storage space, but if your space is very small per package, it might be worth it.

  12. I second what Zadig wrote, actually. If you call the right executive at eBay and say, “Hello, I’m Wil Wheaton, and my product launch has been delayed because…” in a way that is patient-but-clearly-frustrated, any company worth their salt will have your problem fixed in the next 48 hours. This worked for me when I had a problem with my first Powerbook, and I am not Wil Wheaton. They should feel honored to have you as a client, honestly.

  13. Hate to say it but PAYPAL has its limitations.
    Look at ZOOVY.COM they integrate with eBay and have awesome tech support.
    I would have said Pay Pal is for Rookies but did not want to sound mean spirited 😉

  14. Wil,
    I just sent you an e-mail with a possible solution to your PayPal problem. At least I was able to replicate your problem with some basic HTML code. And by reversing it, it worked correctly. I do have some experience with PayPal so feel free to contact me.
    Good luck,
    Brian

  15. Wil, You may find solace by reading http://paypalsucks.com/
    They have a number of suggestions and a user forum where ppl can talk about their experiences and solutions using paypal.
    Looks like you are having some hands reach out to help you for this current round but I would strongly suggest seeking out an alternative web payment service for your NEXT book ;).
    Google Checkout?
    I live in Canada and ordered the newest book a couple of weeks ago and have not seen it in the mailbox. Any word on when that issue will be resolved?

  18. Wil,
    I’ve done some work with PayPal’s API as well. To get a lot of this stuff on-the-fly you’d have to use something on your end to receive the payment information. They send an extensive amount back through a POST to a script you specify on your server. Just about any scripting language out there can handle it, but I usually use PHP to do it. Check the $_POST array.

  19. Wil,
    I know you don’t want to give them a bonus fee for screwing you, but how about using an eBAY store or eBAY ‘buy it now’ auction. As you are well aware, PayPal is already integrated into the eBAY process. The cost to you will be the eBAY listing fee and their completed auction/sales fee.
    Mike

  20. Get thee a fresh pair of eyes. I’m a software engineer and yeah this kind of thing happens. Everything SHOULD work, everything LOOKS correct. Except it doesn’t.
    Usually its because I’m too close to the problem, I’ve checked all the things I’m going to think of, or I’m skimming right over the issue.
    Do you know anyone with experience in this? I’d offer but my software experience is in entirely other areas so I’m afraid I’d be less than helpful.
    Good luck, I hate these kinds of issues too.

  21. Programming Axiom: It is impossible to build an idiot proof system because idiots are so damn inventive.
    I haven’t read all the replies so it may be mute, but you need to have someone else look at it.
    I am willing to put my 30+ years of bug finding experience at your disposal. Provided you fix your public key. It is truncated.

  23. Software problems are such great fun, when I used to teach CS at university you’d get a couple of cases a semester with a student almost in tears because they can’t fix their program.
    They’ve spent a couple of days trying to work it out and finally come to your office show you the code and in 3 seconds you point to the place where the semi-colon should be but isn’t.
    You can see the sadness of wasting so much time on such a simple problem as well as the joy of it finally being fixed in their eyes at the same instant.

  24. Wil, I have no experience with PayPal (because they’re evil: http://seclists.org/politech/2003/Feb/0094.html –please find some way other than PayPal to order these, since I refuse to do business with PayPal and want a hardcover) but as a QA person, that snippet doesn’t read like they’re saying your code is at fault. That reads to me like they’re saying “this might be a bug, but we haven’t heard of it, so we forwarded it to tier II. They’ll get back to you before the heat death of the universe. Maybe.”
    Now, there may be information outside of that snippet that give more credence to this being a problem on your side, but that’s not what I get here.

  25. Heh, heh, you said “Money Shot”.
    Seriously, try Google Checkout, it works very well and you would be out from under the thumb of the evil empire known as Paypal. I would also post a job on Guru.com for a request to check and test your code. Won’t cost much and then you can go back to the Evil Empire and tell them that you KNOW it’s their problem.

  27. Niiiice… I would be very p’d off if I were you… wish I could do something to help…
    On a related note, finally got my generic, paperback book. Love it, by the way… but do I get the late-record for the “2-9 day” media mail? 🙂 (Ordered Oct. 2, shipped Oct. 5?, received Oct. 23.)

  28. Maybe I’m confused about what the problem is. But if the price of the Hardback differs from the price of the soft cover, won’t you be able to tell which item that way? Just make all of your books cost a slightly different price! (Okay. I may be oversimplifying it…)

  30. While there are a lot of geeks reading here, why not shoot Mike or Jerry an email and ask them to ask their readers. With their readership you would probably have an answer or offers of free assistance within an hour.
    -Psiclopz

  32. Adding to the “PayPal is a shitty, shitty company” chorus, http://www.paypalsucks.com.
    Wil, I love you, man, and I’d love the book, but I absolutely will not give them any business whatsoever. Give me an address and I’ll send you a check the same day.

  33. I helped a friend with some paypal coding a while back, and I think he was having a similar problem. Tell me if this sounds at all familiar: he was using code to pass extra information through a pair of option variables called “on0” and “os0”. Originally, he’d been using on0, on1, on2, etc. with os1, os2, etc.
    Well, it turns out PayPal only actually supports on0,os0,on1, and os1 – just four variables. So, i got creative on the code to just use the variables we have.
    Does this help any?

  34. Put this on LJ then remembered it’s a feed:
    This could be superfluous, but do you use a PayPal cart? Dreamweaver has a great extension for PayPal that puts in a really good cart.
    Maybe that will help?
    Good luck!!
    Angela
    ps: save one of those for ME!! 🙂

  35. One of the advantages of being “Just a Geek” is that a lot of your readership are also geeks. You should have no problems figuring it out with the help of some readers I’d think.

  36. I had a problem when I set up my PayPal items. I did not have shipping and handling, but have my cart set up to be able to add it in should I ever need to do so. Make sure that the code on each of the items is the same except for the name of the product, and the price if you need it to be different. The rest of the information should be something that you would enter or modify directly on the PayPal side. I fussed for days with mine until I figured it out.

  37. Using Ocam’s Razor (and hopefully not cutting my head off) I endorse the use of a PO Box. I supect it would be less expensive than an Internet service (e.g., Yahoo!, Google) and you would have more control and not be at the mercy of a server or an indifferent CSD. Of course, then, you’d have to deal with the Post Office…alas, no system is perfect. Hope you’re not in any of the fire paths. Live long and prosper….

  39. I hope you get something worked out to your satisfaction soon. It sucks that this should be a wonderfully happy time, yet is turning out frustrating.
    I’ll be patiently waiting until the hard covers are ready to go. Take care of yourself stress wise, also!

  42. Try contacting Uncle Griff at ebay.com, too (griff at ebay). He’s been the “eBay Ambassador” and has been with the company a while, so he might know who to forward your complaints to so they’ll addressed in a timely manner (yes, even at Paypal).

  43. Wil —
    Can’t you make the prices differ by a penny? That way the price will indicate which book the people purchased?
    I’d be willing to pay a penny more to make it easier for you to process the order. 🙂
    You’re worth it!

  44. Wil —
    Can’t you make the prices differ by a penny? That way the price will indicate which book the people purchased?
    I’d be willing to pay a penny more to make it easier for you to process the order. 🙂
    You’re worth it!

  45. Dianna,
    I think the prices do differ. I think the problem is that when Wil goes to download all of the purchases, he wants to print out pre-made address labels with some indication if that label is supposed to go on a softcover or hardcover. With one product, it’s not a problem, but with two, he has two things and needs to know which one to put in a package to send to each person.
    And with hundreds or thousands of orders coming in, he needs to be able to do it simply, as in print out all of the softcover orders and package then, and all of the hardcover orders and package them separately. If he needed to check every individual purchase, it would take several minutes per order, which would eat all of his time.

  46. Ok, so this is a really 20th century solution, but based on Craig’s explanation it seems like it could work.
    If I had a csv file that had all the info in it on the screen, and a pile of labels in the printer, I’d export the csv file to a mail merge/label function in Word (or your favorite word processing software) and just print there. You can sort the csv file before you put it in the Word doc so you get what you want in the order you want it, and you only really have to create the merge file once, and then input the data for the labels as you need.
    Is this too simplistic or are we looking for a super high-tech 21st century solution instead?
    Granted, Paypal should do this for you. But instead of spending hours looking for an alternative you could set this up in 10 minutes.

  47. Ok, so this is a really 20th century solution, but based on Craig’s explanation it seems like it could work.
    If I had a csv file that had all the info in it on the screen, and a pile of labels in the printer, I’d export the csv file to a mail merge/label function in Word (or your favorite word processing software) and just print there. You can sort the csv file before you put it in the Word doc so you get what you want in the order you want it, and you only really have to create the merge file once, and then input the data for the labels as you need.
    Is this too simplistic or are we looking for a super high-tech 21st century solution instead?
    Granted, Paypal should do this for you. But instead of spending hours looking for an alternative you could set this up in 10 minutes.

  49. While I’m sure the “PayPal Sucks” contingent has valid points, it may be worth taking the form response at face value. The knowledge base doesn’t have this error yet, and they’ve got their hamsters on it. I work tech support for a software company, and I hate having to tell customers I don’t have the answer yet, but sometimes it’s the only valid response. The waiting game is painful, but give them a day or two to hammer something out.
    Unless PayPal’s corporate values are not as stringent as my company’s, in which case they should suffer. Suffer mightily.

  50. {{{hugs}}}
    I feel you pain, Wil. Just know that all your loyal readers will wait until it is worked out. Yes, we are impatient and often vocal in that imaptience, but we stand by you (ha! pun!) anyway. Afterall, what else can we do? 🙂
    We don’t blame you for the delay, so please stop beating yourself up over this. I know that the wait is worth it.
    Incidentally, I received my paperback in MINT condition and happily devoured it in one sitting. Excellent work, Writer Wheaton!

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