It’s years out of date, so I’ve been considering either closing or updating the WWdN Cafepress store. I can’t design for shit, though, and even if I could, I don’t have time to do it.
Rather than just close it down, I thought I’d pose a question here: I’m sure there are lots of good designers and creative people who read my blog, so if I had a contest to design things like shirts and stickers and stuff, would anyone be interested in participating?
The winner would get a signed Happiest Days hardback and credit + links to the winner’s website, blog, store, whatever.
I would probably use the “Hey, that’s awesome!” method of choosing a winner, which may lead to two or even three designs making it into the store. All winning designs would get the same book + credit + link prize, of course.
I’d have to find some contest rules to use somewhere, but it would probably be one of those things where you hold onto the rights to your submission, and I get a royalty-free license to use it commercially until the sun burns out, etc., so it’s kind of like work for hire, I guess.
I don’t know if this is the best idea in the world, so let me know what you think in the comments, mmmkay?
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Hey Wil,
I’m surprised that no one has mentioned this yet, but Woot.com’s http://shirt.woot.com/ has a nice T-shirt design contest. It helps designers get some recognition and maybe even a few bucks, and it lets us geeksters get some pretty awesome shirts for $10 or $15. I’ve purchased 5 so far, and am pretty happy with them.
You could take a look at some of the submissions and contact the people with designs that you like. And/or think about using or tweaking the contest rules to your own twisted ends.
This link lays out the basics of the contest rules:
http://shirt.woot.com/forums/viewpost.aspx?postid=1946963
I’m game to give it a try. I always like getting my creative groove on.. I love coming up with designs.. Just get me some of what you like, a time frame and I’m there..
I’ve not commented on your blog in a while, but yes, I’d be interested in participating. Not sure you want designs from a programmer/analyst. They tend to be… well, let’s just say I’ve never won any awards.
I’d enter!
This sounds like a ton of fun.
If you’re sticking with CafePress, it should be noted that fairly simple designs (limited palette, little fine detail) will work best.
It’s also worth noting that Jonathan Coulton ended up having t-shirts made from several of the designs he received. If you get enough good ones, it may be hard to pick just one.
Interesting proposition. I’m a designer who hasn’t got the time to do what I’m SUPPOSED to do.
Ergo, taking on another impossible task? Wonderful! I wanna do it!
Will get back to you if/when can suck my brain back out of my current black hole of employment and possibly cultivate something creative.
And, of course, if you actually do decide to open the proverbial door to a designer.
In reading your new post, I felt compelled to log in and say something.
I make my living by the word – I’m not fiction or even non-fiction writer in the sense you are. I get paid by the word or by the hour.
I have two rates. What I’m worth (which is a lot) or absolutely free, no questions asked. There are no deals, there are no specs, there are no contests.
Sometimes I do work for free – for friends, for publicity, for a cause, for the hope of future work. But to say “never free” doesn’t recognize the real world.
Maybe that’s what you mean by “other compensation,” but I still think there’s a subtlety here.
You should post this on Pixish – it’s got a lovely interface, and it’s what Jonathan Coulton did. And who doesn’t want to be like Jonathan Coulton?
I disagree with posting on pixish. You should keep it confined to your blog, cultivate the community you have here, not at pixish. You don’t need pixish to find people willing to submit designs.
This seems to have brought out all the haters on Fark. To that end I say:
Wil asked a question, plain and simple. He did not say “Design my shirts now, bitches!” and some of my fellow designers went “ZOMG WTF!!!” Wil is a creative professional, however he is not a graphic designer: I would not expect him to have the same AIGA and GAG contracts and books I have on my shelf, thus he wouldn’t know about the usual guidelines for spec work, etc. There was no need to freak out. I do a combo of in-house and pro-bono charity design work. I get bored easily and prolly would throw a design his way. Why? Because I’m a fan and I enjoy Wil’s work. Same thing with what Coulton did: he asked his fans. (maybe you should talk to him, W?). Wil shall eventually figure out how this contest should be run maybe with a few rational suggestions from the peanut gallery/comments. If you feel your life’s work is going be degraded by being on a geeks t-shirt then fark you, don’t submit it! I suspect he meant this to be fun, not trampling over the career I dearly love and have devoted my life to. I still love ya, Fark.com but c’mon, don’t be a dick.
/end rant.
I’ll get the ball rolling with a few text-only ideas. Feel free to adapt. Or just ruthlessly lambaste/discard:
1) (in a monospace font) alt.wesley.crusher.haters.fuck.off
2) Wesley Crusher made out with Ashley Judd. On camera. What have you done with your life?
3) (in the style of those “What Would Jesus Do?”) WWWD (“What Would Wesley Do?”)
4) (as #3 above) WWWFSD (“What Would William Fucking Shatner Do?”)
Hi Wil,
Most professional graphic designers (myself included) frown on design contests. Members of AIGA and GDC are discouraged from entering them since they undervalue the amount of effort and skill that goes into our work:
http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/position-spec-work
http://www.gdc.net/business/purchasing_resources/articles43.php
I know your intentions were honourable, and this is just a fun contest for a little site, but I just thought I’d let you know.
– Lex
Haha. Serves me right for reading posts in chronological order 🙂
– Lex
While this sounds like a fun thing, it’s oddly close to the way I put butter toffee peanuts on the table. So, hmmm.
But as far as the plan goes in general I’d suggest a couple of things.
1. You should also consider finding someone – possibly in the same way – to give the shop itself a redesign.
2. You could avoid some of the rights issues and other complications by approaching this as an affiliation project instead of a personal shop project. What I’m getting at there is that “winners” or anyone else whose designs you like – provided they’re also at Cafepress – could appear in your own shop at your own domain. You’d never have to handle someone’s digital files or create the products yourself. You’d just choose what products you wanted to include, using a third party script called CPShop. CafePress affiliate sales are handled through Commission Junction.
Here’s a CPShop site of my own, as an example.
You could fold the whole thing into a template of your own and include whatever you liked while avoiding some of these pesky issues.
I would love to make a t-shirt that make you go “Hey, that’s awesome!”. You certainly made me say that enough times that I owe you big time 😉
This will probably not generate as much logical, well thought out response as it does emotional outbursts, but…
IMHO, one of the biggest reasons that a “professional” would be offended or otherwise unwilling to participate in a contest is because they recognize that they are in one of the lower percentiles in talent and/or skill (at least within the contest domain). This might not be a truly concious realization, but I believe it to be a real one.
And, for the record, I’ve been a programmer for over 20 years and still submit entries in contests now and then, for no compensation other than a mention by name if I win (or place). Sadly, I rarely even get an honorable mention, but it is fun to challenge my skill set with problems that aren’t typically within my domain, even if I don’t end up producing an entry. I guess that some graphic artists don’t do that.
Also, I agree with an earlier poster that shirt.woot.com seems to provide a great example of a functional contest, and as a weekly deal, I’m afraid that it seems to eliminate the suggestion that it takes a truly significant investment in the designer’s time as it seems many of them are constructed in hours — not days or weeks. And http://www.woot.com‘s weekly photoshop contest is another nice example of a place where graphic artists compete weekly.
I think it’s a great idea, if you keep it simple. Have the contest, give the books, credit and links, and take ownership of the design (like most other design contests). I’d participate.
I like the idea. I look after a successful e-commerce store in britain, but i cant design for diddly.
diddly being i can design anything.. as in i’m pap at it not as in i wouldnt design for nothing.
Damn my english slang!
I am not an artist at all and, hence, may be missing something. However, this model doesn’t make sense to me, unless your blog/store grants artists some really awesome exposure, and I am not sure how relevant this site is in the artistic community.
I would think a small royalty agreement – where they can share in any profits you end up making from their work or something might make more sense. Maybe that’s completely wrong.
Hmm…methinks I may have to throw something together.
Sigh.
A a proud member of the Pixel-Stained-Technopeasants:
I’d do it.
This whole hoopla sounds like the SFWA things…really. Sometimes you write and create because you want to create not because of the buck.
It think this is a good idea. It sounds like fun.
I do work as a designer, writer and I dabble as an artist.
Wil you do give away writing for free everyday or nearly so. 🙂
Two more:
– Set phasers to “impeach”.
– Anarchists of the world: unite! (Wait a minute…)
The first is, sadly, about six years too late. But you could always mothball it on the off-chance that McCain wins in November.
Cheers!
David
I’m not offended, but I have also been doing pro-bono stuff for over 5 years and frankly am losing motivation to do this without money.
I -love- design, but I’m also starting to feel like it’s my turn to be paid.
I also know I am not the best and I know you would pick someone over me.
If I come up with a design out of the blue, I might send it to you, but yea, not motivated to “bust” my rump.
Maybe give some ideas of what you want?
I need an actual bachelors and my experience hasn’t dealt with many critics. I’ve worked for people who appreciate just the fact that’s it’s something better than their secretary can do on Word.
That’s my ramble.
Some designers are rather snobby about what they do. I have pet peeves and am anal about certain things, but some people need to get the stick outa their ass.
You were VERY clear. If they feel offended then they shouldn’t participate. There was no reason to get all huffy about it.
I’m coming from your follow-up post to comment. You mention how you understand the point of view of getting paid for your work, but then you balance on the use of the word “contest” without actually changing any of the details. It’s still a contest, you’ve just changed the wording.
Why not ask designers to submit portfolios so that you can pick a style you like and then that designer can do a design for you? The amount of compensation isn’t at issue, it’s the lack of GUARANTEED compensation for work done that’s the problem.
I’d be thrilled to do a design for you for a signed copy of your book, but only if I was selected to do the design and was guaranteed I’d receive the book for my work.
Designers have portfolios for this very reason.
Anyway, you can see mine at:
http://squeegee.popfuel.com/gallery2/
I think everyone here should look at:
http://www.threadless.com
(which was recently featured on the cover on INC. magazine)
This is a company where the customers are the designers are the company — and it works.
Just tell us how to submit, and I’m sure you’ll get flooded. I’ve got one design done already, and another two working their way out of my brain. It’s not about the contest or the prize or the possible rewards, it’s about having something new to explore.
[To anyone upset about the stigma of a contest, I’d suggest that you may not really want to participate in the first place, because you’re confusing a fun exercise with “work”. If you’re in a position where you can’t take on freebies for fun, then just silently pass on this one. Nobody will fault you for it. Just don’t fault anyone else for suggesting it. It’s just the circumstances of reality at this moment in time.]
So yes… how do we get you designs? Email? Post links here? I can strap a printout to my kitten and send her your way, but she gets lost behind the couch quite a lot so I’m not sure it’d work out.
@Jeremy Wilson:
If you read his comment carefully, he actually DOES offer a signed copy of the book for the designers who submit something. It may not be what Wil meant, but it seems to me he may well be offering a copy of the book to anyone who sends something in.
I hope it doesn’t come back to bite him, as I’m tempted to submit something just for a signed copy – and I’m not much of an artist. 🙂
Why in the world would doing this offend or demean someone? I write software for a living and I write freeware utilities occasionally. Why would that demean the programming profession? Does pro-bono work demean lawyers? You take yourself way too seriously. Or just greedy?
“Jeesh, people, if you don’t want to participate, just move on. I’m not sure that I will do it either, but I’m not going to knock Wil for asking.”
For the record, I was not offended–but Wil did ask what we thought.
I am baffled by posters who seem to believe that our opinions have something to do with having “inferior talent.” Perhaps they are merely saying that professionals do not have time to participate in design contests. This is true enough–I certainly don’t have that kind of time, and don’t intend spending time designing stuff that may or may not be used.
I also don’t see much in the way of offended designers in the posts. Perhaps those who see offense in our position are merely being overly sensitive?
I concur with the philosophy of No Spec, but I think it’s a little harsh to lump Wil in with the greedy corporations who use contests to get a free dog-and-pony show from the design community.
The difference is a matter of intent. We know Wil is a thoughtful, considerate person. He’s simply asking his friends in a community to do some work in trade; it’s fundamentally different than a corporation trolling for free design.
Again, the design folks are right to resist corporate-sponsored spec, but we should be careful not to back our friends into a corner as we push our personal soap boxes into the center of the room.
“Why would that demean the programming profession? Does pro-bono work demean lawyers? You take yourself way too seriously. Or just greedy?”
Big Tony, perhaps you should take a moment to understand what we mean, rather than responding to a straw-man.
Being asked to provide free work (which is what a contest is, since no contest rewards every participant with payment) for a contest is different from providing pro bono work. I have done hundreds of hours of pro-bono work, for museums in particular, because I believe in public education, but there there was the guarantee that my work would be used (and eminently visible). I did not receive payment for it, but because the work is visible, I was able to use my pro bono experience to get other work.
It’s much more problematic to try and use a fact of submission to a contest to get other work, unless it goes into the portfolio as “self-promotional” (and how self-promotional can it really be, if it advertises someone else’s brand?)
Like it or not, these are concerns which weigh heavily on the mind of professionals. Can you really consider us greedy merely because we want to educate others on how we actually make our living?
I think it’s cool that Wil asked our opinions. What I’m not clear on is why our opinions are not cool with some of the other posters here.
“It’s much more problematic to try and use a fact of submission to a contest to get other work, unless it goes into the portfolio as “self-promotional” (and how self-promotional can it really be, if it advertises someone else’s brand?)”
It’s called a graphics department. And graphic design. I get paid to do it every day. It still goes in my portfolio.
Do you spend every moment creating something for payment of some sort? Don’t you just ever create?
Just because you’re commissioned…even pro-bono..there is no guarantee it’s going to get used. Sorry…there is no guarantee.
I may have missed something, but I haven’t seen any comments from designers who were offended, freaked out or unreasonable. I think a question was asked as to whether a design contest was a good idea and responses were given pro and con, which I believe was the objective of the post.
Also, on a separate note. Cafe Press shirts are not great quality, so if you do commission a design you are happy with I think you would be much better off doing a small print run. Then you can say “Limited Edition!” or something of the sort.
Two approaches
Approach 1: “I want a bunch of you designers to expend time & effort to design something specifically for me. I will evaluate your me-specific designs and select one designer’s work. That designer will be compensated for his or her work. The rest of you will receive no compensation from me for the time & effort invested in creating an original design.”
Approach 2: “I want a bunch of you designers to provide me with links to a portfolio of your past design work. I will evaluate your past designs and select one designer. After being selected that designer will create a custom design for me. When the me-specific design is completed, that designer will be compensated for his or her work. The rest of you will receive no compensation from me for the time & effort invested in sending me a link.”
It’s the difference between soliciting a design (Approach 1) and a soliciting a designer (Approach 2).
Wil,
Us people that would like to have some fun with this just need some guidelines, for motivational purpose and direction. We also need a way to submit.
I could always post anything to my own site and just forward you the link here on your blog. And those of us “Involved” can do some peer review and maybe help each other out.
As for the rest of anal retentive pissy pants whiners, I dunno… 🙂 lol
I think the error being made by the professional designers here is assuming Wil (and the other commenters) don’t understand their position. Believe me, we do: you’re professionals and you expect to get compensated for time and effort, which this call for designs may or may not do.
That’s fine. Really. Don’t submit if you don’t like the terms.
But plenty of people seem willing to submit designs under the guidelines Wil has proposed, so I suggest you think of this as a contest for amateur designers to get more exposure and some images for the portfolio, rather than a slap in the face to all the already-established pros out there.
In any event, even if Wil were to sort through dozens of portfolios to pick a designer, there’s no guarantee that the designer could come up with something that Wil would be interested in — and if Wil doesn’t have a specific idea in mind (which it sounds like), he wouldn’t be any help other than “no, don’t like this; that one is OK.” This way, he picks a design he likes and doesn’t have to trust in a designer’s fallible intuition.
I read the No-Spec article, and I completely agree with it… but I really don’t think it has anything to do with what’s being proposed here. And I think it’s that article that has posters (and Wil perhaps?) thinking that designers here were “offended” by the suggestion. Without that article, it just sounds like designers are speaking up. But the article itself is somewhat angry in tone.
And in response to that tone: Certainly, there are companies who run design “contests” as a way to draw free attention and get a great design from someone who is not then adequately compensated. And certainly, that limits the opportunities for talented artists who won’t offer their work for less than it’s worth.
But this is Wil Wheaton’s blog!! My goodness–he’s not gonna make ten grand off your t-shirt design on Monday and then layoff 4000 employees on Tuesday! He’s not giving himself a hefty raise from the designer’s salary he’s saving, and laughing all the way to his private jet!
When I read his post, it struck me as an invitation for Wil’s personable online community (ie us) to participate by offering witty designs for t-shirts and cups. On Cafepress! CAFEPRESS!! My MOM has a store on Cafepress! We’re not talking about corporate exploitation here!
Anyhow, Ann and SmithSmith said it far better than I did and with less perfervidity. I just couldn’t keep my fingers quiet. (See? Participatory community!!)
Sounds like a great idea. I am not creative at all but if you wanted some help with Terms and Conditions, Intellectual Property and licenses I could absolutely help out.
My roommate is an artist and I know how annoyed he gets with the people who seem to think all they need to do is buy a paint brush and paints and “boom” they’re artists, too. I guess I’m trying to say I understand the artists on here wanting respect for their profession but come on guys, this is Wil. He’s not looking to take advantage of you; he’s trying the best he can to make it a win/win situation.
By the way, we use Zazzle for merchandise and they do a good job and seem to have a lot more options than Cafepress. And Wil, I know my roommate wants to paint a portrait of you (or Anne) so if you have any interest, get in touch. PPS. Any chance you are going to come down for Comic-Con?
“It’s called a graphics department. And graphic design. I get paid to do it every day. It still goes in my portfolio.”
You still got paid for it. And material which is actually used does bring more value in a portfolio (I always bring final production samples of projects I’ve worked on). Have you never been asked the question in an interview, “So, where would I have seen your work?”
“Do you spend every moment creating something for payment of some sort?”
No. Why would you think this?
“Don’t you just ever create?”
Of course. But even if I didn’t, why should that change my position?
“Just because you’re commissioned…even pro-bono..there is no guarantee it’s going to get used. Sorry…there is no guarantee.”
I’m sorry, but you appear to misunderstand me: I only work pro-bono if the work will be used. This is a condition because I front money, time, and materials for whatever it is I produce. I like for that to not go down a black hole, so, yes, as a matter of fact, everything I have produced pro bono does in fact get used (in this case, that means displayed to the public).
Your mileage may vary, but I wasn’t speaking for all other designers, merely amplifying why I eschew design contests, and showing why the notion that designers who might refuse to participate in a contest are being nothing but greedy is false.
Pshaw. I’m game. Who hasn’t done a ‘scratch mine, i’ll scratch yours’ deal before.
Hey – come to think of it…
I’m “Scratch”.
Cool.
Wil, let us know vaguely what you want and where/when to submit it. If anyone finds that sentence offensive to their design sensibilities, kindly bugger off.
As a designer who does a ton of volunteer design, I love the idea.
I’m always up for trying something new. And I’ve never done something as high-profile as this.
Some people may thumb their noses at “contests,” but I find that it’s a great way to stretch my creative legs. Just one more way to extend your designing chops, so to speak.
That being said, where do I send my designs?
Here’s what confuses me on this “controversy”… it’s a contest. Pure and simple. It’s for entertainment. The folks bitching about being asked to do work without pay… The payout is the fun they’d have doing it. Wil’s not making any money (or at least any significant money) off merchandise — hell, he’s considering shutting the store down — and the prize has negligible monetary value. (Although the link & credit are a lot of exposure, admittedly.) The only reason to enter the contest is because you think it’d be fun. If you don’t think it’d be fun, don’t enter, and don’t bitch about it.
And the whole “I don’t do anything unless I get paid for it”… I understand that totally, but with the added caveats “… if the person asking me to do the work is expecting to use my work to make money”. I have a friend I’ve happily done work for in the past, starting at $35/hr (heavily discounted because he’s a friend). Another friend I’ve done a bunch of free work for. The difference? The guy I charge is building a commercial project, the other dude just wants a basic web presence to say “Hey, I exist!” and he doesn’t expect to make a dime from it.
Anyway. For the folks who are bitching, I just hope you never, *ever* have the gall to ask your friends for free tech support…
Great idea! I think you should go for a simple classic.
WWWD? – on the front
What Would Wesley Do? – On the back. You could include all sorts of fun nonsense after it as well :o)
– Could be What would Wil do as well of course but I think Wesley would be funnier ;o)
Cheers,
Van
Interesting. I’m a professional designer, and I never think twice about entering a design contest I feel like entering, usually logo contests. If I win, the honour of seeing my logo on something is cool, and if there’s a prize or something, even better. I was never aware of it being viewed as work on spec until we had the 2010 Olympics logo contest here in BC a few years ago. I happily entered (didn’t win). But then there was a big deal in the news about how many design firms were absolutely against the idea of entering a contest. The winning prize was two tickets to the games and $25,000. Now to me, $25,000 for one logo would have been an amazingly mind blowing sum of money, when the honour alone would have been damn cool too. But I guess maybe because I’m a freelance designer who takes what comes along, and not a big design firm, I don’t see spending a bit of my free time doing something that’s fun (and not something I’m not being forced to do) as unpaid work on spec. It’s just not the same to me as being asked to do something by a potential client, putting effort into it, and then he decides no to use it and I don’t get paid. But I still respect that others feel differently.
For what it’s worth all I ask is that you keep the old designs as part of the store. I’d love to buy new designs but I still love occasionally buying a new version of my Klingon Convention Trama shirt or a Wil’s Posse shirt. You know, when the old one gets too worn out. The old designs kind of remind me of the past and the old blog. It would be sad to see them go. 🙂 But some contest like what JoCo did would be cool. I’m not a designer so I wouldn’t submit a design but it would be cool to see what everyone else comes up with.