McCarthy would be so proud

Metafilter was the first to share this story from the democratic underground. It seems that Bush was speaking at Ohio State University’s graduation. The students were told that they were expected to provide a “thunderous” ovation and if they disrupted the ceremonies in any way, they’d be arrested.
That’s right. At a public college, the students would be arrested and expelled if they expressed their unhappiness with George W. Bush.
One student, who exercised his constitutionally-protected 1st amendment right of free speech, and turned his back on Bush tells his story here.
Let’s get something straight, because I’m really tired of being told to “move to Afghanistan” because I’m “anti-American”: If we allow the Bush Administration to goose-step all over our civil rights, and we sit back quietly while Ashcroft dances all over the constitution, we no longer have a country worth fighting for.
Things like this transcend political ideology, IMHO. It doesn’t matter if it’s the Democrats or the Republicans who are currently in charge.
The thing that is so amazing about the USA is that I can (as of June 15, 2002) stand here, and loudly proclaim, “I DO NOT SUPPORT GEORGE W. BUSH, OR HIS POLICIES!!,” without fear of reprisal. When graduating students are subject to ARREST for an action like turning their backs on a person who they don’t respect, we have a very serious problem.
I hope that everyone can take off their various political mantles for a moment, and see this for what it is: the unconstitutional silencing of dissidents.
McCarthy would be so proud.

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228 thoughts on “McCarthy would be so proud”

  1. And Strabolgi:
    Denmark also knew Hitler.
    Do you understand what you are saying when you say “Defend Freedom”, and then implicitly agree with the trampling of Constitutional rights the next moment?
    The dichotomy astounds me.

  3. KJB, if you don’t think that there are hordes of A-rabs waiting to kill us, then go to Iran and live a year with them and see how quickly they slit your throat like a hog.
    If they aren’t hordes then what would you call a group that have swayed destruction, erradicating civilization, after civilization and replacing those they executed with their own kind. For example Egypt, those living there today are nothing like the ancient Egyptians, why the ‘muslims’ killed them ALL. They want the same for all other civilized nations. They want to kill you and me and I find that offensive.
    NYC

  4. As for the whole Masters in History deal –
    Did he have any idea where Afghanistan was? Does he know now?
    Has he learned anything from history?
    Does he remember the difficulties of fighting a land war in Asia?
    A degree is something you can buy nowadays. I still have little respect for him.

  5. Actually, NYC, President Bush Jr. has a Bachelors in History (Yale) and a Masters in Business Administration (Harvard).
    Although I’m not sure either fact is terribly meaningful to this conversation.

  6. NYC:
    If you truly believe that all Muslims are out to kill all Americans, then I’m sorry. I’m sorry your world is that skewed.
    The “A-rab” phrase merely shows your own ignorance and bigotry.
    I hope you learn inner peace sometime, as well as history.
    Historically, the Muslim expansion of its early years was carried out by military conquest, yes. But if you were a Jew back then, where was it safer to live? In Muslim areas.
    During Europe’s “Dark Ages”, Muslim countries advanced the sciences and the arts, building upon the Greek texts that Westerners had seen fit to chuck out the window.
    So don’t you DARE tell me that all “A-rabs” are killers and propagators of an evil, parasitic, cannibalistic culture.

  7. Hey, Wil… long time reader, first time caller. I am glad to see that people are not afraid of stating their true feelings about our “president”. I myself voted for Nader. I am on a Rocky Horror cast here in wisconsin, and even we have a callback expressing our displeasure at the president… not too sure how many people here are familiar with this cult movie… but in any case, during the creation scene, Columbia says ‘he’s ok’ Frank angrily responds ‘OK?’ (audience shouts “What do you think of George W Bush?”) Frank then says ‘I Think we can do better than that!’ This usually elicits a lot of cheers from people. Sorry if this is offtopic, but I seem to think for some reason that it is related.

  9. KJB, there is no f-ing dichotomy, these are incredible times, which require non-standard responses. That is why it is a WAR.
    Again, they want US dead. What part of dead befuddles you?
    What part of the world does Bush not understand, he made it very clear, you are with US or against US. Those who support killing US (terrorist) are the enemy, those who want to support those killing US, the A-rabs, are the enemy. Again terrorist=nazi!
    Annie, we are headed in the direction of defending ourselves, if that offends you, don’t come here, don’t buy stuff from here. ‘Nuf said.
    NEVER AGAIN

  10. Terrorist does not equal Nazi.
    NYC, there IS a dichotomy. You say, Yes, fight for freedom. But you don’t mind destroying freedom in order to do this. Don’t you see?
    There is no war. It is a war in name only; there has been no congressional declaration.
    Please, for your sake, think about what you are proposing. If nothing else, contemplate calling someone an A-rab, and how that is a bigoted remark, especially when referring to a whole group as a murdering bunch of Nazis.
    I wish I had more time to talk, but I’ve got to get some sleep.

  11. Have the terrorists frightened you so much, NYC, that you would be willing to give up your right to free speech, to free thought, to many of the freedoms you and I take for granted, so that a percieved threat can be hopefully squashed?
    Have you let them win?
    Peace out, folks.

  12. Being a Brit, I don’t feel I have enough information to comment properly on Bush. So I won’t.
    However, recent events over *here* make me despair. When a government has one of the biggest majorities ever, you would expect it to feel fairly secure. But our present government has spent the past five years desperately trying to manage the press – while chastising us for being cynical and apathetic! Read about the latest sorry tale, still ongoing, at

    No KJB, I don’t believe that all muslims want to kill americans, just the 99.9% of them I call A-rabs, live I would say Nazi to describe someone evil. In case you haven’t noticed A-rabs are funding homicide bombers to kill Jews, and training other A-rabs to kill me, that offends me okay? I don’t want them to kill me, sorry.
    I think you apty described them “killers and propagators of an evil, parasitic, cannibalistic culture.” I would add satanic and pedophiles to that though.
    NEVER AGAIN! NEVER!

  13. KJB, good point about Denmark and Hitler.
    My mother’s uncle was tortured to death by the Gestapo for helping a jewish family escape to Sweden. Doubtles he would have been called a terrorist by the Germans (that word was invented much later) but to us and Denmark, he was a hero and a freedom fighter.
    I, in no way condone terrorism, but to hear some of you talk…
    Read ‘Mein Kampf’ and see what I mean.
    Hitler as well as McCarthy would have been proud…
    A dictatorship by any other name still stinks as bad.
    *my apologies to the Bard*

  15. What freedom is being destroyed, the ‘right’ to swarm into the US undocumented. The right to plot to kill innocent civilians with a all types of devices, including radioactive ones. Sorry, someone plotting with terrorists=nazis, then I’m glad the Government is stopping them.
    What you refer to as a right, is not it is simply a temporary measure, a little inconvience. I would rather see one guy inconvienced than 3000 Americans dead, sorry you don’t.
    As for the speech, who the hell knows, but those that want to be disrepectful to the guest speakers and graduates, who worked years to get their degrees should be ashamed. If they want to protest, go out side. Inside they should give the same respect, they would want. It is called common decency, which is not common today at all, how unfortunate!
    CAN THE bin laden!

  16. Annie, My Uncle fought the Nazis in the air force in France. He was brave but I consider your Great Uncle to be a hero! I’m truly sorry and sickened by what happened to your Great Uncle, his soul will surely forever reside in heaven. The evil nazis would have called him a traitor, but he IS a hero, and those like him too. I can not see a way anyone could be more brave.
    Also, I tried to read AH’s diatribe, but was too confused and bored to read it all. The pig was a terrible writer, so I didn’t read it all. I hope that is okay? I don’t think my body contains enough vomit to read the whole thing.
    Please, McCarthy was a drunken fool – but AH was evil and you give him too much credit comparing to a moron like McCarthy.

  17. CNN is also reporting that the crowd at Ohio State was told to behave or be arrested. It’s in the last paragraph of this story.
    http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/06/14/bush.ohiostate.ap/index.html
    The problem I have with the coverage is that it is all the same and almost the same wording. Journalists tend to use other news reports as sources for their stories, which isn’t good. So, I still haven’t seen quite enough to be definitive about what actually happened.
    You would think that someone would have had their camcorder going at the time and has captured it. So, I’m sure if it did happen the way the reports sound, we will know about it in the next day or so.

  18. Off topic. Sorry. But since the war is the issue behind this issue, I thought people might be interested in this story from the New York Times:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/opinion/16DOWD.html
    QUOTE:
    Classified investigations of the Qaeda threat now under way at the F.B.I. and C.I.A. have concluded that the war in Afghanistan failed to diminish the threat to the United States, the officials said. Instead, the war might have complicated counterterrorism efforts by dispersing potential attackers across a wider geographic area.

  20. I have a few points I would like to make”
    1. College students, while intelligent, do not have the life experiences that many of us already have. I should know cause I was one of them. I can tell you that I had some stupid opinions at the time, mainly because I was young and just had not experienced the real world yet. I usually don’t put too much stock in the opinion of someone who just moved out of mom and dad’s basement and spend Friday nights getting wasted.
    2. I agree that respect should be shown to any speaker at a college, be they the president or anyone else. If you have a problem with that person, don’t go to the speech. Stay home, write you congressperson, create a website against their policies, or better yet, VOTE! To boo, hiss, or turn your back on someone speaking, especially one of your elders is not only rude, it’s immature. Wow, immature behavior at a college. Imagine that. (Can someone say hazing?)
    3. Finally, hecklers get booted from many events and no one ever cries that their Constitutional rights are being violated. If you go to a concert, a comedy club, any kind of speech and start causing trouble, security is going to kick your ass out.
    Now I am not a big fan of Dubya, but I think this incident is being blown WAY out of proportion here. There are ways to behavior in a society and what some of these students did is just not it.

  21. It is scarey to think that Bush claims to run the greatest democracy in the world and yet does this kind of thing. What worries me more is that here in the UK Tony Blair is going down the same road with his obsession for ‘media friendly Tony’ (now available with football for a quick kick-about and stylish Sven glasses for ‘Ulrika appeal’). With this sort of thing going on how can we go out into the world claiming they must follow our act. We’re all with Wil on this one I think.

  24. Well, this is interesting. It’s the article from the Ohio State student newspaper. It’s about the protest. But there is no mention of the announcement. I’m wondering if we’ve been had. I guess time will tell. Someone had to have a camcorder going.
    http://thelantern.com/news/255720.html

  25. Sinkerhawk, you wrote:
    “College students, while intelligent, do not have the life experiences that many of us already have.”
    College students are not all starry-eyed 22 year olds who’ve never held a job more taxing than part time work at the mall. It’s 2002 and they come from all ages and all life experiences.
    “I had some stupid opinions at the time, mainly because I was young and just had not experienced the real world yet.”
    Be that as it may, unless you personally know all the people involved and feel qualified to judge the validity of their opinions…
    “If you have a problem with that person, don’t go to the speech.”
    Sounds like the people who said “if you have a problem with a prayer being read at graduation, then don’t attend graduation.”
    Graduation is about the graduates, first and foremost. For them and often (for the most part) paid for by them, even. It’s not about the speaker.
    “To boo, hiss, or turn your back on someone speaking, especially one of your elders is not only rude, it’s immature.”
    Elders and ergo betters? Then maybe everyone here should report their age and whoever’s the oldest should then be allowed to take the floor and lead the discussion without “immature” dispute?
    Being an older person, I’d love to rest on that laurel, but I’m old enough to know age doesn’t mean ca-ca. It’s what you’ve done with it.
    It’s not “immature” to dissent. Sometimes the rationale is weak, sometimes the method is unnecessarily disruptive, but protesting in itself is not immature. In fact, choosing to silently turn away from a person is one of the most “mature” forms of protest I can imagine.
    “hecklers get booted from many events and no one ever cries that their Constitutional rights are being violated.”
    Sometimes they do, as it happens, but is turning away from a person the same as heckling? Forget that, is it appropriate to be told that the years, money, and effort spent working to earn a degree will be made null and void and that you’ll be subject to criminal prosecution if you turn your back on a government employee?
    “There are ways to behavior in a society and what some of these students did is just not it.”
    These “ways” are enumerated in legal documents, not an individual citizen’s ideology. Please cite your source for the behaviour at Ohio State being unlawful, or better yet, unconstitutional.

  26. Wil,
    Our country has slowly been sliding toward our present Police State since the Reagan era. It began subtly with the stripping of teen-agers rights – in the name of what was best for them, of course – and we stood by, casually, apathetically, and we said, “Maybe the government is right. Maybe sixteen is too young to smoke, or eighteen is too young to drink, or maybe curfews are, indeed, the answer, or the right to peaceful assemblage IS actually trespassing and loitering after all. Perhaps the police NEED more authority to pull people over, randomly, and harass them, since, after all, a young person out after ten is criminal, or a motorist at 2 a.m. must be drunk, or a nonwhite in a white neighborhood HAS to be grounds for suspicion… but, just in case, there’s always that “crossed the double-yellow line” excuse… (Hey, the cops got away with the Rodney King thing, right?) Grr.
    (As a man who is half Puerto Rican, I can say this. I have been pulled over 17 times in the last three years. I have yet to get a ticket. 50% of the time I’ve been asked, “Sir, whose car is this?” True story.)
    We thought, just maybe… we need the government to show us the way. After all, parents don’t know how to parent anymore. (That person spanks her child!) We’re ignorant to interpersonal relationships. (All men cheat on their wives! I saw it on Young & the Restless! He’s gay! That’s it! They’re what’s wrong with the world! Why didn’t we see this before? Because, you idiot! There was no Oprah before! Duh! Or Geraldo, or Ricki, or Montel…)
    We have become what we have allowed ourselves to become, as we’ve been conditioned to be, to look on other people, other ways of life, or other lifestyles, “abnormal activities”, our neighbors, with 1950s’ paranoid suspicion. We’re the ones who allowed the government to take us by the hand and say, “Come this way. You’re not living right. Neither is your neighbor. We will show you how it’s done. The right way. And, hey, if your neighbor isn’t with the program, let us know, okay? We’ll… help him see the light. We have a whole army of social service workers to teach them…”
    And we all went, like SHEEP, because the government became the keeper of our conscience, and because the media were the teachers of our morals, and television showed us how we were supposed to be living, and as long as we stayed in line and kept our blinders on, the world was just as rosy and peachy as they told us it would be. And we traded our personal liberties for the sake of our children and our nation.
    (Tell me, does neighborhood watch translate to spy on your neighbor?)
    And the sensationalist media demonized everything about people’s lives, using crack, AIDS, and even “out of wedlock” pregnancy as broadswords – amongst many others – to keep us off guard and to justify vulgar invasions of privacy until slowly, methodically, we were a twisted paragon of what political correctness called “normal”, with a whole library filled with new laws designed to keep everyone and everything in check.
    And WE wielded those broadswords proudly as we all chanted “Just say no!” or “Just do it!” and helped the government “fix” what was wrong with this country… by eliminating things that were different, or that we didn’t understand, or that we believed were wrong, under the guise of what was BEST for America.
    And little by little, either violence or apathy replaced weekend beer parties, and guns and gangs became the norm for our kids. And music became the psychopathic representation of the times. And we became the inheritors of a stone-fisted, black and white society without the gray area where the oxygen used to be. We tolerated the loss of individuality with the same ease we allowed a man to deface the office of the Presidency, as we are now allowing this massive, Big Brother Government of OUR OWN creation strip us of what little liberty we have left. This is NOT the beginning, Wil. We are at the top of the mountain looking down on all we trampled when we allowed the government to lead us here.
    (I liked it better when everyone minded their own damned business, personally.)
    Yet remember… all we had to do to get here was turn away from others as THEIR rights were slowly whittled away, while we basked in the good life the economy was providing. But, as we were told, it was for the good of the many to repress a mere few…
    … and to our eternal shame, we believed them.
    George W. Bush is not the beginning of this, he’s the apex. We are, as I said, at the top now. If we were moral, we would have held Bill Clinton to a higher standard.
    (Like it, or not, we allowed a President to commit perjury, and we even justified it for him in the name of “privacy”, as if the man was more important than what the Office of the President stands for. Was the battle with Nixon not partly over our right to know that what’s being done behind closed doors is TRULY in the best interest of the nation, that our voices are being heard, and that the PRESIDENT is NOT above the LAW? I’m not debating this. The man MUST live up to the responsibility… and GWB has to, too.)
    Wil, if we were a society that cherished liberty, we would have fought hard for the rights of others long before the “Goose-steppers” made it to our door. Do you not yet see where we are at this moment in time in our country?
    “… and when they came for me, there was nobody left to say anything.”
    Here is some food for thought, my friend:
    You said:
    “If we allow the Bush Administration to goose-step all over our civil rights, and we sit back quietly while Ashcroft dances all over the constitution, we no longer have a country worth fighting for.”
    Consider this instead, because we’ve already been doing all THAT since 1980:
    Perhaps… this is exactly the time to START fighting… before there really is no one left to say anything.
    Yours with Regards,
    JJ Christopher

  27. WHOA!
    Bush has been a thorn since the Florida voting massacre. The Republican voting intitiative hit an all time low when valid votes were not counted, yet they gave cigarrettes to homeless people to get their vote.
    We are even unlucky enough to have his brother for Govenor. C’mon Reno!

  28. Hi people.
    I read the article you gave us the link to the other day, Wil. Thanks. I have to tell you guys something. My opinion.
    I still remember when I saw the twin towers that day, and I still remember the pain when I saw such a tragedy. I couldn’t really understand it. I can’t understand why people have to be so mean to each other. Why we have to kill each other. I’ve never understood the wars.
    I WANT peace. I want to say that I’m not happy about Bush and his politics. I do understand that some of the Americans wants revenge, but I can’t understand why we have to bomb a country because of this. Innocent people are also living in Afghanistan. Young people, children.
    Is this right? To kill people? We say that it’s wrong to kill people, but still we kill back? I don’t think that justice is done with murder.
    We’re all a part of this, and even though many people died September 11, many other people died other places too. If we could only find another way out of this. If we could stop the war. We have to stop the war, before it’s too late. Through the years we have managed to make it almost impossible to find another solution than war, and it really hurts me. We gotta stand together, before we can do something about it.
    I’m not telling negative things about the Americans. I’m telling all that if we have to stop war and cruelty we have to stand together. We have to think of another solution than war.
    It won’t help to bomb Afghanistan. They will only get mad. They are already angry I’m pretty sure. Osama Bin Laden and the others should have thought about what would happen. When they planned the attack on WTC. It would only make the Americans angry. It’s clear that the Americans are angry and hurt, but if we keep on bombing each other we could go on forever. If we keep on killing each other the peace will never come. We gotta stop this.
    “Run to the rescue with love and peace will follow” River Phoenix
    Take care.
    Peace, Helene

  29. I know we are not supposed to use this comment area as a BBS, and I promise this will be the last time I do so, but I just can’t stand by and let some of these things be said without responding.
    To those who are crying out that it is a matter of respect, and that the President deserves respect, I would say this:
    As President, a great part of his duty to us, the people of this country who elected him and pay him to do his job, is to uphold the constitution. The right to disagree with our leaders and to peacefully demonstrate that is constitutionally protected, and as far as I am concerned once he has disrespected the constitution he forfeits any right he ever had to respect from me or anyone else who treasures their constitutional rights. Those rights are, after all, what makes this country great.
    The office of President is an elected one, and his duty is to us, not the other way around.
    M

  30. I’m glad Wil takes the time to post about stuff like this, to post what is true and right. That’s why I think it’s an opportune time for him to make up on a promise that he’s broken. Last year he posted a story about Bush sending money to the Taliban that I informed him was not true. He kindly thanked me and said he’d look into it. No correction was posted. Further emails were not responded to. But now would be a great time to post the truth.

  31. Wow – lotta confusion in this thread – and even one guy posting under two names – must have trouble getting his point across I guess.
    Let’s see now; War on Terrorism, War on Drugs, War on Poverty, War on Inflation – hmmmmm how many wars can we maintain at any one time? I find it odd that we can fight in conflicts and lose thousands of lives a month and calmly refer to it as a “police action”, then invade a dusty defeated, disorganised and mostly destroyed country and call it a “war” in which the highest number of allied casualties was the result of our own “friendly” fire.
    What happened on 9/11 was an evil act, but once that act had occurred there was a need for greater consideration prior to action.
    WHAT? you say, and let those bastards get away?
    Well sorry, but we rushed it and they DID get away, the small fish we have behind razor wire in Cuba were ours for the taking anyway.
    And a little thought as to WHY people hate us so much would not go astray – it is not just because they are “A-rabs” and we are amaericans (and who by the way are you defining as an “A-rab”? Iranians? – Persian, Afghans? – afghan, turks? – turkic, Somalis? – African, Pakistanis? – various tribes from indian subcontinent.)
    I could go on, but I truly believe that if people were able to use the brains that god givt’em then we would not be in such a fine pickle of a discussion.
    THINK, the thoughts you are afraid to think
    READ, the words you do not agree with
    SPEAK, your mind without fear
    ACT, to all with compassion
    SEE, the truth that ALL humans must be given the same rights and opportunities and that OUR way is not always the best way.
    I will stand when Mr Bush enters a room because he holds the office of President of the United States of America, but if he wants respect then he will have to earn it, because I too share the planet with him and my life and rights are equal to his.

  32. Shari, I disagree with just about everything you said. Big surprise. I know that if I was giving a speech, I would be very offended if people came to it just to turn around and ignore me. It’s an insult in the most childish form. I did not like Clinton at all, but when he came near my hometown to give a speech, I would never in a million years gone out to insult him or belittle him in any way. That’s just how I was raised. I would disagree with what he said or did, but I would never insult him in person.
    I also consider age to be a big factor in life experiences. I’ve been out of college for about ten years now and my whole attitude has changed. I have begun to realize that a lot of the things I believed in were because of my own ignorance and youth. I still say that college students are the last group of people I would look to for guidance in life AND politics.
    You are right, it is not against the law for a person to heckle or ignore someone giving a speech, but it is well within the rights of the school to remove and expel disrespectful students, especially if the school feels that their actions go against the moral structure that the university is founded on. Legally, I have the right to call you names and make fun of you on this forum. The police will not arrest me, the FBI is not going to haul me in, but Wil can censor me, he can remove my post, he can ban me for life. That is his prerogative because this is HIS forum just like Bush’s speech was on the SCHOOL’S grounds. If I invited someone over to a party and you came to make fun of them or insult them, you better believe you would be out sitting on the street in no time.
    Just because I can legally do something does not make it right.

  33. Ok, who was arrested? Anyone?
    Did Bush or his officers escort people out, or was it the school?
    I can’t defend Bush here, because according to all the links, HE DIDN’T DO ANYTHING TO ANYONE.
    On the other hand, when Clinton spoke, and anyone protested, he DID have them arrested. The secret service arrested numerous people, and he even had the irs audit them.
    Wil. I’m disappointed in you. I thought you were a little more fair minded. But it seems you, and many people here, are eager to see the worst, even when it isn’t there.

  34. Ok, who was arrested? Anyone?
    Did Bush or his officers escort people out, or was it the school?
    I can’t defend Bush here, because according to all the links, HE DIDN’T DO ANYTHING TO ANYONE.
    On the other hand, when Clinton spoke, and anyone protested, he DID have them arrested. The secret service arrested numerous people, and he even had the irs audit them.
    Wil. I’m disappointed in you. I thought you were a little more fair minded. But it seems you, and many people here, are eager to see the worst, even when it isn’t there.

  35. Well, this topic is all over the place now and some of the points being raised are completely ridiculous. Nazi Germany? Police State? Please. Things are far from perfect in this country, but it’s still the best damned place to be if you want to think and act FREELY. I don’t know, people here (and everywhere) seem to eat up this hyperbolic BS with a spoon, but when you mention Nazis and police states, you lose me and your point (if you have one) is immediately sent to the Null & Void Department.
    Anyway, back to what I hope is still the issue…
    In reading the links I saw in subsequent posts, all I can see is reference to the announcer suggesting that Bush receive a “thunderous ovation.” I can now see that the conspiracy theorists MOST LIKELY took this admittedly poorly considered phrase and ran with it. I doubt that the rest happened, but at least I can see where it started. We’ll see. I still admit the possibility it MIGHT be true, but I’m now more skeptical than I was before.
    I don’t know which is more ridiculous, that people take the time to try to make these things up, that other people buy them so readily, or that still others take the time to look into it and post on it trying to convince others that The X-Files is fiction and the sky is not falling.

  36. Actually would it have mattered if it was GWB or the President of the Local Knitting Guild? If people have a right to protest, then that should be respected no matter who the speaker – from the sounds of the planned protest it was unobtrusive – no heckling etc.
    I object to loud heckling or interjections simply because freedom of speech also needs to be extended to the person you are protesting against – and it also marks you as a rude individual who does not want to hear an opposing viewpoint.
    If students and others were removed for simply turning their backs, then that is truly crass.
    If Clinton had people removed for protesting, then he is equally guilty.

  37. I want to comment on M’s post:
    “As President, a great part of his duty to us, the people of this country who elected him and pay him to do his job, is to uphold the constitution. The right to disagree with our leaders and to peacefully demonstrate that is constitutionally protected, and as far as I am concerned once he has disrespected the constitution he forfeits any right he ever had to respect from me or anyone else who treasures their constitutional rights. Those rights are, after all, what makes this country great.
    ”
    Bush never stopped people from using their 1st amendment rights. You want to protest bush’s speech, go right ahead, but do it OUTSIDE. You have the right to protest, but not in someone else’s property while they are holding an event. Do it outside. Then no one gets upset.
    But be careful. If you protest while Clinton is speaking, you WILL get arrested, even if you do it outside.
    I wish you folks would actually see some of the things that Clinton did. You folks never said one word during Clinton’s incredible abuses. But one school ejects students when they protest inside the auditorium during the presidential speech, and the world is ending.
    Btw, the school didn’t order anyone to applaud. They requested it. I saw the other articles. But the one on the democraticunderground.com MUST be true, right. They would NEVER have a bias on things. Oddly enough, even that article couldn’t put too bad a spin on things. The worst they managed to say is that the speech stopped until a standing ovation occurred. Big deal.

  38. Is this some phenomenon of the Internet? If you expect me to BELIEVE something, then prove it! Show me the proof about Bush. Show me the proof about Clinton. The fact that you expect what you type onto a messageboard to be taken as fact, shows me that you believe what others type into a text box.
    George Bush is a Yeti! Why isn’t anyone talking about that? There, I typed it. Do you now believe it?
    It’s ridiculous! Look into things, do your research, think critically, and question EVERYTHING! And if you expect me (and God help us if not EVERYONE else) to believe that what you say has validity, back it up! While I’m sure you are a nice person who is completely trustworthy, give me some corroboration for your statement.

  39. My school had CIA director Tenet. If you wish to hear about the long and dubious history my school has with the CIA, email me. If I was graduating this year I would have had my diploma mailed to me. And, my mommy would have supported me 100%.

  40. Well, I cannot support or deny the validity of the event in this article.
    But I will tell you this: The security additions added post Sept 11th where I work does include “Speaking out against any policies of the current administration” as a direct violation of security policy. Any person violating this (and other far more sensible precautions) will be reprimanded up to termination, arrest and indictment.
    Figure someday I’ll be arrested for coming here, but maybe, just maybe they have bigger fish to fry than I….

  41. Thank You for posting this, it is truly unbelievable that this sort of thing is still possible in our country. This really makes me sick!
    Hope you don’t mind but I passed this on to greenlight as well!
    *still in shock*

  43. I think if is quite sad that people are flaming each other in the GUESTBOOK, of all places. This is where you put your thought on what the webmaster put up on HIS site, which he opperates with his own funds. If you really want to get into a flame war, please do it elsewhere.

  44. As African American writer, James Baldwin, wrote in Notes of a Native Son: “I Love America more than any other country in the world, and exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.”
    I live by that sentence. It would be nice if everyone did. But this is America, one should be able to choose to live their life however they want as long as it doesn’t cause “actual injury” to others (as opposed to emotional injury, which is what happens when people want to end recognized rights–i.e. free speech hurts their feelings, gays offend them, or they don’t like action movies therefore nobody should be able to make or watch them).
    The U.S. is based on the people, not a king, emperor, god, or president. James Madison believed that it was necessary to have many factions in a large republic to prevent tyranny. It is intrinsic that the U.S. have people who oppose, criticize, and monitor the government and interest groups.
    The course description, mentioned in an above comment, for UC Berkeley was not written by a real professor (from my understanding) and it was recently changed. Yes, there are liberals who can be as stupid as conservatives. But the fact that there are some liberals who wish to stifle expression does not make conservatives–or *anybody*–right in restricting forms of expression.
    I’ll leave you with two quotes from an unknown (not famous) UC Berkeley political science professor (Prof. Sperlich): “Freedom means nothing unless you have the freedom to be different” and “free speech can be unpleasant but we should endure it for the freedom.”

  45. My thanks go to you as well Wil….thanks for posting this stuff….
    you’re not the only one that has these opinions..
    we do to…
    hell, I’m Canadian, and i agree with you…
    cheers wil, and keep it up…

  46. I must say to those who asked for more evidence, you people need to pay more attention to media. I’m not talking internet media but CBS news, CNN, Washington post, local news etc. becuase hey folks this was on my local news in a small town in Illinois for Gods sake. Its not even a liberal news paper. I hear so many people whine about people who question the administration or government, and most of the time those people only have a glimpse at what the real issues are. I notice America doesn’t seem to pay to much hard time in expanding there knowledge of events and just go at face value.
    As a concerned American I read and watch media from all around the country and the world. There are many things senators, not just Bush, are doing wrong. Senators are “war profiteering” from Bush’s new anti-terrotist bill, asking for millions of dollars in their own private projects such as restoring gradens in Florida from becoming a Nudist colony. And no one seems to realize there is no declared war here it cant be declared by the presidentafter more than Ninety days. No one seems to notice that in most news reports the military has complained of Bush’s strategy which at this point has stretched most military branch’s thin and has left several security gaps. No one seems to care Ashcroft spent thousands of dollars to cover a nude statue or that Bush spends 4.1 million to constantly visit Texas in a time of crisis where are national budget is extremely tight? I mean come on Bush may not be the best president or the worse but pay attention to our country damn it. Thats the responsibility we have as citizens. This is the peoples country we have become so adjusted to others running it we just take things at face value, come on put some effort in protecting both security and liberty of this nation pay some attention read, watch, listen, and get involve.
    Ps heres a little quote about free speech:
    WITH THE FIRST LINK, A CHAIN IS FORGED, THE FIRST SPEECH CENSURED, THE FIRST THOUGHT FORBIDDEN, THE FIRST FREEDOM DENIED CHAINS US ALL IRREVOCABLY.

  47. If you’ve got as far as the bottom of this comment list then well done! I’ve read them all.
    I’m not American, I’m British so you may disregard my views. You US lot have something Brits dream of (a written consitution), and for goodness sake use it. We’ve got our own problems in the UK with Bush’s lapdog (Tony Blair) but arresting people for excercising their constitutional rights is illegal.
    As for ‘Strabolgi’s comments on A-rabs, my father has worked in Iran and Iraq for a UK company and he’s still alive. I have many Arab friends and they are kind and would go out of their way to help you.
    Michael J Martin (composer)

  48. Folks,
    Lots of interesting comments here — but also a lot of mudflinging and charges/countercharges.
    Didn’t anybody ever hear of the old Usenet dictum: write it down, save it to a file, then go take a pee. If, after you’re done, you still think the words truly represent you and your thoughts, then go ahead and post ’em.
    It’s my take that Wil puts this stuff up for us to read and think about. It’s not his responsibility to PROVE anything to you — if you use one tenth of the brains Gawd gave a hole in the ground, you’d figure out how to go out and look things up for yourself to your own satisfaction. That’s the nature of thought-provoking commentary — it’s stuff that you THINK about and then go out and learn more on your own.
    Don’t like what you read about Monkey Boy in the White House? Then go find out some more — that’s what libraries and news sites are for. Read as much as you can and take into account that EVERYBODY has a point of view and that what they say is filtered through that POV.
    Sometimes we forget that and just make generalizations based on silly-ass stuff like the fact that they come from a certain country or social class or political party or have a certain gender. While those might be predictors of how someone thinks, they aren’t iron-clad proofs. To find out how a Muslim thinks, talk to one. Hell, talk to a bunch of ’em. Read the writings of a bunch of ’em.
    I can just about guarantee that no two Muslims think alike. Just as no two Republicrats see the issues the same. Not everybody who works in a corporation is a droid waiting to screw over your Aunt Hattie. Not everyone who identifies themselves as Christian is good and pure and not every Muslim is out to kill folks.
    Well, enough of this. As far as I can tell, everybody’s thoughts are provoked. When’s the learning gonna start?

  49. **CHEERS**APPLAUSE**
    Thankyou for posting those links, Wil. I always figured Bush must be a reincarnate of Hitler, now I’m sure of it! I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one who feels the same way I do.

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