60 thoughts on “EPIC FAIL”
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We in Labor aren’t hurting our industry. We’re fighting to save it from predatory sociopaths who will gleefully watch people lose their homes and go hungry, rather than release 2% of their grotesque wealth to ensure a healthy industry for everyone.
You know, I was really annoyed with Hillary Clinton’s campaign when it went Rovian.
But she stood up for our Constitution today. She stood up for our civil liberties today.
Barack Obama did not, after promising us that he would. I am disgusted with Barack Obama right now. Completely disgusted.
Agreed. I have no words. Well, I do, but they’re mostly swear words and don’t form a coherent thought.
FUCK.
I’m sad to say I disagree with your assessment.
Beyond epic, this is an Epoch Fail. Reverberations will be felt throughout the timeline.
My only hope is that Obama is trying to pull an Ackbar here: as Olbermann and John Dean have been saying, the FISA bill is so poorly written that it may only stop civil prosecutions of the telecoms. Not criminal cases.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/26/222646/124/440/542648
I say we knock down one of these bad boys every year or so. I’ll be sure my head is shaved in 2013 for my awesome new barcode tattoo. I can’t wait for at least one of those wondrous dystopian futures I read about to come to fruition.
Earlier in the year on The Daily Show, during the time we were so much enamored with Obama and how much hope he brought, Jon Stewart said something like he wondered how long it will take before he breaks our hearts.
He didn’t even make it to the White House before he broke mine. I’m so disappointed in him and all the fellow Dems who promised change when they were voted in.
Agreed 100%, but you may also be disgusted with John McCain who was one of three (one who was in the HOSPITAL) who didn’t think this was important enough to vote on at all. Way to show your convictions, Pancakes!
Wil, I agree with your disappointment as well. I’m pretty angry about it and feel a bit duped. I don’t know about Hillary though – I feel she used the situation to her advantage knowing Obama was going to vote for the bill.
Perhaps I wouldnt feel so cynical if she hadn’t gone all Rovian in the first place…
Obama’s recent votes and support for the Heller decision are drawing moderates and Independents, like me, toward him. Complain all you want, but moves like this might just win him the election.
You know Wil, I honestly can’t decide if I’m more disgusted with Obama or the many people I’ve talked to who don’t know and don’t care about this bill/issue. That freaks me out. How the hell do I live in a country where breaking the law five ways to Sunday is not only okay, but gets you re-elected?
Hey, the 4th had a pretty good run! Not like that blink-and-you’ll-miss-it 18th. When the amendments get together for reunions everybody still talks smack about 18.
Except for 25. 25’s all, like, “hey, at least that one got used.”
Days like these, I wish we could do a mass recall on everyone in federal office.
Only not like that time with Cali, Gray Davis, and Arnold Schwarzenegger.
You know what? Obama voting yea on this doesn’t nearly piss me off as much as McCain not voting on it at all. Because you know he’s going to take all the credit for this, just like he did for that GI bill that he didn’t vote on, that Bush threatened to veto, that he himself opposed. At the very least, Obama made his stance known and will take his heat. McCain on the other hand is showing just what sort of voting record he’s running on (that is, none at all.)
And I do agree with Olbermann’s special comment (and Dean’s assessment) on this. Obama’s stance painted him into a corner, but the Republicans took a blow dryer to the paint so it dried quickly enough to give him an out.
WTF doesn’t even begin to cover it.
I was going to be really upset until I watched the Olbermann comment regarding the fact that they can still be criminally prosecuted. There was no “right” way to vote on this and he knew it. Everyone’s so quick to judge, but try spending a day in their shoes with 13512613 ways to mess up and get back to me on how good a job you do.
I still think there is hope. I do.
this is indeed depressing.
Yep, this is one massive Epic Fail. I’m so pissed this evening. So, so pissed.
Yes, the telecom companies *could* still be prosecuted. Just don’t hold your breath that they *will* be.
I have friends who have told me that government eavesdropping of phone calls doesn’t bother them because they have nothing to hide. My response: So, with that logic, its also OK for the FBI to come in and rumage through your unmentionables drawer without a warrant because “you have nothing to hide?”
I think this quote says it best: “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
I would take this a step further and say that those who would give up Liberty in order to have security will soon find that they have neither.
Actually Wil it’s been dead since 2006 and Hudson v. Michigan, you are just late to the party.
I figured this would be your sentiments. Don’t forget to take the morning after pill, cause the magic man image is wearing off and your probably knocked up.
I could have told you all this, but you were all Obamamania and savoring his shit like a pet rock or something, sometimes you have to let people learn their lessons the hard way.
I actually agree with his decision, though. FISA has to do with wire tapping international calls, those are not a right and neither is the telephone infrastructure, would you rather they just cut the lines and destroy the satellites? We are in a major war and headed towards a larger one on the horizon that only a miracle could head off and if anyone does they should immediately get the Nobel. We have to know when sleeper cells, that we know are here, receive a wake up call. How else would you suggest we do that?
As far as me and my favorite amendment, I’m clinging to the second. My only question about it is, whats the caliber max on that, cause I’ve got some pretty large ones. Can I get a howitzer, thats a gun? a Triple A battery? and technically a missile is an arm, can I bear that? What ever the sentiments keep em flyin.
I am deeply saddened at this.
Every time I heard Obama speak I would think of the old political saying: “No one else can give you as much as I can promise you.”
I think I must have been in a hole. What happened today? I was at work all day and stuck watching PBS kids (yeah I know but what can you do) I know what the 4th amendment is I’m just to lazy to search the internet for answers on this, — this just seems so much easier.. plus it makes me look like an idiot,– so that is fun all in it’s self.
I think you can add “Rule of Law” right next to it. How old’s the Code of Hammurabi? That old fellow jump started the whole thing.
I could really use a spot on a “Ferengi freighter” right now as I sure “warf” and his buddies are no where near this place to take on deserters…
This planet is just not the place for a human being to be these days and I want off!!!…
The *only* potential good that I see is the the retro immunity date is 9/11 and a lot of this shit started before 9/11 (and is still in play)…
Um, Spartica, you do of course realize that the wire tapping could have continued even if this bill had been voted down right? The feds would just have to get a warrant from the FISA court. They don’t even have to get it ahead of time;
they have 72 hours after initiating the wire-tapping to get a retroactive warrant from the court. The only thing this bill does is ensure that there is no oversight by anyone outside the administration or telecom companies. Do you really agree with that?
Edgar: I agree that this vote by Obama is part of his strategy to track to the center, but still, the Senate had every means to kill this bill, and utterly failed to do so.
Watching news footage of Bush crowing with victory today before the WH press corps truly made me ill.
But if anything, I hope that if Obama is elected, the telecom immunity clause will be revisited and revoked next year.
Very nicely done. Could I use this as my facebook profile pic? Could we all? If enough people did it, would anybody care?
First, let me state very clearly that I am *against* the passage of this bill, and even more strongly against the clusterfuck situation that forced this bill in the first place. But this is how our government works.
From time to time, presidents do things that are unconstitutional, and from time to time, Congress passes laws that are unconstitutional. Ironically, it’s constitutional for them to do that.
The final arbiter in these matters is the U.S. Supreme Court. It doesn’t matter what bloggers/commenters think, and it doesn’t matter what University professors think, and it doesn’t matter what “legal experts” think. The only opinions that matter in regard to whether or not something is constitutional are the nine men and women in black robes who sit on the Supreme Court. (And to a lesser extent, the opinions of those Supreme Court justices who came before them, leaving their legacy through precedent.)
And *that* is why the upcoming election between Obama and McCain is so, so important.
For the record, I don’t believe this is a Fourth Amendment issue, because past precedent shows that the Fourth Amendment only applies to criminal law, and not civil law. So the fact that this bill provides immunity against civil lawsuits suggests that it would fall outside the protection of the Fourth Amendment.
I am an Obama supporter, but I don’t fault him for this vote. He voted for the modified bill (*without* the immunity to telecoms), but it was voted down by a two-thirds majority. Once the writing was on the wall that this bill would easily pass with or without him, it became a political calculation. If he voted “No,” there would have been a fresh wave of political commercials playing on the fears of middle Americans, claiming that Obama doesn’t want to keep us “safe.” (They obviously have a different definition of “safe” than many of us here.) So he voted for it. If I were an advisor of his, I’d probably tell him to do the same thing.
For the record, Hillary could smile and vote against it, because she is *not* in a general election battle with John McCain. But I am willing to bet hundreds of dollars that if Hillary were the candidate, she would have voted *for* the bill, and Obama would have voted *against* it. Purely a political calculation.
However, I still think the most important thing at stake in the upcoming election is the potential appointments to the narrowly-divided U.S. Supreme Court.
Every few days, for the last few months, I have heard something or seen something or realized something that’s made me want to make an ironic lolcat rip-off: the planet Earth from space with, “ur doon it rong”.
At least he voted. John McCain couldn’t be bothered to show up. Pussy.
You can whitewash a zebra, but sooner or later its going to rain and his stripes will show. I like you Wil, and you’re a good guy, but I knew it was only a matter of time before Obama would break your heart.
Anyone who thinks either major party is fighting for you and me is sniffing some serious glue.
We can only hope that this new law will fail at the Supreme Court level. I don’t see how it could possibly pass Constitutional muster.
“Change WE CAN’T Believe In” — That should be our new slogan for the Obama campaign. His vote is absolutely disgusting and concerning at the same time.
I offer this snippet from best-selling author Glenn Greenwald’s blog article on the subject (posted 7/9/08):
“Obama’s vote in favor of cloture, in particular, cemented the complete betrayal of the commitment he made back in October when seeking the Democratic nomination. Back then, Obama’s spokesman — in response to demands for a clear statement of Obama’s views on the spying controversy after he had previously given a vague and noncommittal statement — issued this emphatic vow: ‘To be clear: Barack will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies.’
“But the bill today does include retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies. Nonetheless, Obama voted for cloture on the bill — the exact opposition of supporting a filibuster — and then voted for the bill itself. A more complete abandonment of an unambiguous campaign promise is difficult to imagine.”
With that said, we have to ask ourselves, what changed? Or was his vote indicative of his view on the matter all along? I believe Obama spoon-fed a false view back then to people eager to believe in him in order to help secure his nomination. To say I’m disappointed would be an understatement.
I’m an Independent, and at this point once again undecided how my vote will go in November. Because another concern is: The alternative candidate — John McCain — couldn’t even be bothered to vote? At least my home-state Sen. Ted Kennedy, with all his medical issues, made it to Congress for another crucial vote.
Also of concern is this, when Greenwald goes on to write:
“With their vote today, the Democratic-led Congress has covered up years of deliberate surveillance crimes by the Bush administration and the telecom industry, and has dramatically advanced a full-scale attack on the rule of law in this country.
“Today, the Democratic-led Senate ignored … protests, acted to protect the single most flagrant act of Bush lawbreaking of the last seven years, eviscerated the core Fourth Amendment prohibition of surveillance without warrants, gave an extraordinary and extraordinarily corrupt gift to an extremely powerful corporate lobby, and cemented the proposition that the rule of law does not apply to the Washington Establishment.”
The full text of Greenwald’s blog can be accessed here: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/07/09/fisa_vote/index.html
To close, I have to say this latest stripping of our freedoms should be of serious concern to all Americans, and should serve to make us scrutinize all the closer the motives of those who wish to lead us. Such moves tend to give credence to a statement made occasionally by a friend of mine in light of such actions, here and abroad, that the world overall is edging closer to a complete totalitarianism.
It reminds me of that scenario in which you can purportedly cook a live frog without the frog knowing it, just by placing it in a pan and little by little turning up the heat. Seems to me it’s becoming no different in reality as our freedoms are stripped a little at a time. The only question is, how long will it be before a majority says “enough is enough”? In retrospect, the founding forefathers of this country said “enough was enough” over a lot less.
One consolation: The oft-reviled ACLU has promised an immediate challenge of today’s vote.
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges.
@ Bender for Pharaoh: You hit it right on the head, my friend. No one can promise more than Obama, that’s for certain.
@ Wil: There were a lot of people who paid to make sure you perceived Clinton as “Rovian.”
Something’s up with my connection speed so when the page first loaded it was the background colors and the only words on it were “EPIC FAIL”. This is a bit off topic, but I know what I’m going to change all my 404 ERROR pages to now.
Back on topic. Shit like this makes me all sorts of stabby.
JacqueChadall
@Spartica – OK I’ll bite.
We actually already had the laws and processes in place, with Government oversight, to listen to these types of calls. It’s called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. To legally listen in on these types of calls, all they had to do was go to them and say “Hey, I need a warrant to listen to this bad guy.”
Instead, this administration illegally bypassed this court, listened to whomever they pleased without telling anyone, then got caught/outed by the New York Times.
Also, when/if a call were to go to a sleeper cell to “wake them up” as you say, what do you think the conversation will be like? “Hey, wake up and go bomb Americans now OK?” Don’t be so daft. These laws are protecting no one but are depriving us of the Freedoms that made this a country worth protecting.
You people disgust me.
Yes, Obama did vote for this bill…HE ALSO VOTED FOR ALL THREE AMENDMENTS TO STRIP THE IMMUNITY FROM THE BILL!!!! You know, those three amendments which were all shot down?
Come on people. Do at least a LITTLE bit of research.
Immunity to civil prosecution is tantamount to complete immunity. It is unlikely that any criminal prosecution could succeed, as the telecoms proceeded on a good-faith assumption that the government requests were legal. Civil suits were really all that the telecoms were worried about…and now they have no need to worry.
And Spartaca, yeah, sure, there’s no right to overseas phone calls. That would make it legal for the government to BAN them, not to listen to them.
You can’t spell “hopeyness” and “changitude” without “capitulation”.
http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=12786
Anyone who’s shocked by this hasn’t been paying attention to politicians in this country for the last 150 years. It’s entirely about saying whatever it takes to get into power, then squandering your ability to enact meaningful change by focusing all your energies on retaining that power and getting re-elected.
@pojut: I, for one, am aware of how Obama voted on the three amendment proposals (it’s mentioned in the blog article to which I provided the link and I keep abreast of the news). Given that, we have to question why his final vote was in favor of a bill that retained that immunity provision. Something doesn’t gel with his obvious flip-flop. And more than just griping about Obama’s single vote, this particular post and its comments are expressing concern over the continued increase in unchecked government abuse and the loss of constitutionally-guaranteed rights. Any American should be rightly concerned.
In evaluating political candidates, it helps to look at where they came from.
Sen. Obama came out of Chicago politics. Chicago, where old-time machine politics is still alive and kicking the workers to the side to enrich the well-connected. It’s one of the reasons why my family left the area – too many people to pay off to start a small business, too many organizations that have to have their slice of your pie. About the only recent major political figure to come out such a machine with a reputation for honesty was Harry Truman. Sen. Obama’s no Harry Truman.
@Wolverine:
I fully agree with you that everyone should be concerned. I think (again, this is just my opinion) that Obama still ended up voting for it for the following reasons:
1. Wanting to reinstate FISA.
2. Knowing that if he wins the presidency, he can have more power in stripping immunity.
3. Knowing that if McCain wins the presidency, they would be granted immunity anyways. This way, at least FISA will be put back in check for now.
I’m not saying I LIKE the fact that he voted for the bill, but if what I interpret his reasons are true…then I can deal with it.
Please let Spartica be a troll. Please.
I knew there was no way for Obama to be perfect, but I’m still excited about him. McCain frightens me to the core.
Obama ’08
Gotta say that, even though Clinton voted against it, I believe this was a bit of theatre. I think should would have voted for it had she gotten the nomination.
But what do you expect when we elect centrists, not liberals as the nominee? You have to expect big disappointments, and even if Hillary did vote against this if she did get the nomination, we’d also be a) more likely to have a tighter race come November and b) she’d vote (morally) the wrong way on something else.
Edwards or Kucinich (or Bill Moyers) would have been far, far better for “truth, justice and the” real “American way.”
Although this vote will not will Obama many accolades from the left, I wouldn’t worry about those same voters defecting to McCain, a person whom I respect for his military service, but will not be voting for this November.
For some reason, whenever I see McCain speak all I see is the past.
I have to agree with Obama on this one. The good things this bill does (restoring FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance and re-establishing judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance) outweighs the bad (retroactive immunity).
As for foreign tapping, I think that the policy violates the PRINCIPLE of the 4th amendment. However, it does not change the APPLICATION of the 4th amendment at all, so FISA (in this case) doesn’t make things worse…it just doesn’t improve anything.
Do you still support Obama in his run for President?
I was shocked when you made your entry supporting him during the primaries considering his view on the death penalty.
I am sticking with Nader again this year. 08 will be my 3rd time voting for him.
http://www.pafundi.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Number of Operations Iraq Freedom and Enduring Freedom casualties
as confirmed by U.S. Central Command: 4638
We’ve got US soldiers claiming refugee status here. I see no reason civilians can’t either…
Canada offers refugee protection [to those] who cannot return because of a well-founded fear of persecution based on … political opinion…
[To those] afraid to return to her or his home country or the country where the person normally lives, because of:
* a risk of torture
* a risk to life or
* a risk of cruel and unusual treatment or punishment.
Ref. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/inside/apply-who.asp
Come for the socialism. Stay for the beer.