I think it is important that everyone reads this.
If anyone sees this in an American paper, please let me know.
283 thoughts on “Guardian UK”
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Liberal knee jerk bullshit. It was this kind of thinking that allowed september 11 to happen in the first place. The FBI didn’t check Moussaui’s(sp) computer for fear of being accused of racial profiling.
This isn’t in an American paper because it isn’t news. It’s an opinion, and I agree with most on this list, of a bunch of elitists who are so far removed from every day life that I can’t really take their opinion seriously.
I hear a lot about understanding these islamic terrorists. No, I don’t want to. I don’t understand a people who perpetrate the worst forms of human rights violations on their own people still to this day. Want to see the real thing instead of pontificating? Take a look at some of the islamic law at work at http://www.ogrish.com. And yes, the Daniel Pearl video is there too for all you who want to know the reality of who these people are. The fucking thing was even produced with subtitles, music and graphics by these murderers.
Imagine if America all of a sudden adopted this kind of law. These bleeding left assholes would by be the first executed. I’m sure they’d be wondering where our military was as they were buried to their knees in dirt and then stoned to death by an angry mob. Or, perhaps being torn apart by two jeeps as they sped away in opposite directions, your arms tied to each. Or Wil, what if your wife Anne lifted her burka to see where she was going when she crossed the street and a bunch of thugs flogged her with sticks as you and your step sons watched helpless to do a damn thing about it. And Wil, you WOULD be helpless. Remember, we aren’t talking America as it exists today where you could speak up. You’d watch a bunch of thugs beat your wife and have to be the one who nurses her wounds when you get home.
I don’t want to understand these murderers and sickos. I’m ok with taking down people who threaten democracy and freedom, not to mention who are working feverishly to get their hands on a nuke so they can take a few more NYC city blocks.
And the people on that list can shove it up their ass as far as I’m concerned. We are a country, and like every other country we make mistakes and bad calls, but we’ve made some damn good ones as well, and a lot of these countries who hate us are directing their rage in the wrong place. They should direct it at their own dictactorial “governments” that keep all the profits from the US and other Western countries from their people who are starving for food and keep them shrouded from information in an Islamic country so they deflect their people’s rage away from them and point it at the US, the islamic world’s boogeyman.
Yeah, well to them, fuck you. You don’t like the West, then don’t sell your goods to us to get rich. Cut us off. We’ll be fine without you. I personally will be the first in line to volunteer to pay $5 a gallon for gas to keep the profits out of the hands of murderers and terrorists who want nothing more than to watch me and those like me die at their hands.
One last attempt before I nod off –
I’d like to think that some of the people on this list aren’t far removed from “real life”. They are leaders of such groups like the Middle East Childrens Alliance, the Centre for Constitutional Rights, and the Institute for Food and Development Policy/Food First. These are major groups, and the person in charge probably isn’t some bigwig who sits at a big desk in the corner office of some highrise in a major metropolitan center, sitting on his laurels and drinking Veuve Cliquot all the time.
I’m well aware of some of the horrendous laws in some Middle Eastern countries. One thing to remember, though, is that NOT EVERYONE is like that. There are plenty of Afghanis, Iraqis, Lebanese, and others, who are not fanatical Muslims who take certain Quranic elements to an extreme. This is as true as the statement that not all Germans were Nazis in WWII.
You have a point. Some rage should be redirected to the governments of these countries. But aren’t we all more willing to blame someone else? The heads of state in these countries are native citizens. They are not “Others”, as the Western world is. That’s not an excuse, merely a reality.
Western involvment and interference with Middle Eastern affairs is well-documented. There is quite an amount of justification behind anti-Western thought. Westerners divvied up conquered territories and assigned puppet leaders at random. At the first sign of a rebellion, no matter how peaceful, it was CRUSHED. Villages were bombed out of existence before a goodly portion of the people on this board were born.
Does that make it ok?
No. It is merely fact.
There are generations of hate built up against Western culture, and we’re lucky to have come out this unscathed thus far.
With that, I bid thee adieu, and I hope you can see this issue with a calmer head.
Peace out.
Thank you for posting this Wil. I’m amazed at the backlash by your readers. This situation is intolerable. War is never right. Killing more people simply means that more people die. That can never be justified no matter how much hurt one person or one nation, or even one world feels.
This is not backlash, this is what has happend to the US because of 9/11. I don’t like it but either your for us or agin’ us.
What a load of crap.
A couple of points on the Guardian:
Yes, they’re a left-wing newspaper, which means very left-wing in American politics but in the UK they are fairly mainstream. They’re not anti-American but it’s true to say they are critical of the Bush administration. They’re also very critical of Tony Blair’s government, including his anti-terrorism bill and various other bills that threaten civil liberties here.
It’s not hypocrisy to have concerns about American actions against terrorists in Britain either, regardless of what has been going on in Northern Ireland. Not everyone supported British actions there – the Guardian was as vocal a critic as any – and in any case the situation there is far removed from what happened last September in New York and Washington.
Finally, think about why you’re fighting: I’m not saying don’t go after the terrorists, but if victory is at the cost of freedom of speech, a fair judicial process and the loss of other civil liberties what exactly were you fighting for?
People who like this article have serious flaws in their understanding.
1. They think that we aren’t in a state of war. We are.
2. They think during war time certain rights don’t have to be suspended to win the war, and obtain full rights of freedom back. They’re wrong.
3. They are the first to complain that our current adminstration failed to do all it could to stop terrorism, but they continue to try to prevent the FBI, CIA, the presidency from having the tools to do so.
I am proud to be an American, part of which is understanding people in America like Wil Wheaton who I respect very much have the right to speak loudly about things they don’t understand, and say things they one day may well regret. I just hope people realize that their are two sides to every store, the attacks aren’t over, the death toll will mount, and you and your family and mine may be next. Be ready to do what it takes to win this war.
Hey Wil,
Thanks for posting that link. I am usually in the minority when I bemoan all the presidential references to ‘Good & Evil’. It is reassuring to know what good and learned company I am in. I am so sick of hearing all the propagandist bullshit put out by the White House. As American citizens, we should demand that our lawmakers proceed with caution. Not only will many of the laws being passed in the name of ‘safety and security’limit the rights of others, they will limit our own rights as Americans.
“They that give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety…
deserve neither safety nor liberty.”
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
Beware the government. Personally when I hear
On the principal that you should bomb a country who sponsors terrorism back to the stone-age, should the UK have bombed the US for their blatant support of the IRA? Many more people have been killed here than on 9/11, just not all at once.
Oh and Hitler was voted for, by the German people in democratic elections. He then found a common enemy (Judaism) and proceeded to eradicate freedom and liberty in the name of state-security.
The retoric of National Socialistic politicians at the time, was scarily similar to what some of you are expressing here.
Pick up a history book and look at the similarities. Then think.
Okay, SEMI-off topic:
Wil is no dummy. He posted this article knowing what kind of responses it would draw. ALL kinds, even immature ones. He’s a big boy. He doesn’t need to be protected from people who lash back at him for posting something he found interesting. So, people lashing look silly, but so do those who argue with the morons being.. well morons. 🙂
I’m sure “Uncle Willy” has his own good set of balls and can take it.
“The Alien Registration Act passed by Congress on 29th June, 1940, made it illegal for anyone in the United States to advocate, abet, or teach the desirability of overthrowing the government.”
Since our founding fathers fought for the right to “imagine the death of the king” the above was defiinitely a step backwards, and our movement away from that declaration, a step forward again.
A line must be drawn between talking about it, and actually doing it.
(Actually…..revolting isn’t illegal if you’re successful…it’s only unsuccessful revolutions where one gets convicted of treason. When you’re successful you become patriotic heroes.)
My American ancestors fought in the revolution. I can say that. However, unfortunately, I have to admit they felt like many on this comment board. They felt that revolution was wrong, and that their problems could be solved by working it out peacefully with the government…the British government. They fought on the side of the British, and were termed “loyalists.”
Of course we know they were in the minority. And we’re taught in our history classes that they were the traitors to the cause. But we’re taught their philosophy is the correct one for today. A nice little moral conflict. How do we resolve it?
I’m not saying I favor taking the fighting to the streets. There are a lot of my ancestors in me. But I do see the conflict, and I definitely do not think of people who speak their minds, suggest the country may be on a wrong course, and publicly encourage a course-change, as treasonous. I feel if you think the country is headed in the wrong direction, it is your **moral duty** to speak as loudly as you can.
——
I also found it sadly humorous the poster who proclaimed the wealthy celebrities had no idea what it was like to be a common worker, and in the same breath, decried all Liberals. I guess they feel that the Conservatives in power do know what it is like to be a common worker. Dubya grew up working as a gas station attendant, right? Cheney was a busboy at a diner?
Albert Einstein, The World as I See It (1935):
“That a man can take pleasure in marching in formation to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him. He has only been given his big brain by mistake; a backbone was all he needed. The plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism by order, senseless violence and all the pestilent nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism – how I hate them!”
Remember: history writes that Hitler’s rule began in the name of patriotism. Germany suffered terribly after the end of WWI, economy was terrible. For good or ill, many countrymen looked at many Jewish business owners doing well with angry jealousy. Hitler set forth a serious of patriotic events to bring “his country” back from it’s grave. He succeeded, until his downfall.
I am not preaching pacifism. Even Einstein drew back from his pacifistic ways in the end. What I wish to say is that we need “balance”. One should never follow a path for the sole reason that it is “patriotic” nor should one avoid a path for the sole reason it is “controversial”. I believe that this is what Wil has tried to do here. Open your minds, not try to change them for you.
I still remember a high school teacher with a sign over his desk, “Thimk”. It was large, difficult to miss the misspelling, but it took courage to ask about it. Someone finally did, he only smiled and said it caused someone do DO IT, not just SAY IT.
So I give you all a reminder. THIMK!
Brave call, Wil, and appreciated.
A lot of people have put well thought-out and intelligent arguments both for and against. Sadly, too many people have reacted in an overly defensive way and resorted to childish put-downs (ironically, often calling the article ‘a knee-jerk reaction’…).
It scares me that anyone can lay a blanket label of ‘evil’ on an entire country, nay, an entire ‘Axis’! Bush’s ‘Axis of Evil’ (aside from being possibly the most ridiculous politcal statement I’ve ever heard) is not comprised of millions of Lex Luthors, all scheming to take over the world. It’s comprised of people, humans, pure and simple. Yes they are different, yes terrorist actions are inexcusable and wrong, and yes some of the governments are oppressive. Do you judge a country’s people by its government? Especially when the government has not been elected by the people? My impression is that many Americans would not like to be judged by their democratically elected government’s actions…
I’m not trying to say that underneath, every Arab secretly loves America. Many of them are very angry and I feel have reason to be. They’re not jealous of America’s wealth and power – hello, the USA is not alone in its standard of living! Many countries share a very similiar standard of living, yet you don’t see the same hate against Australia or Western European countries – they’ve been meddled with too many times. Look here for a list of what the CIA’s been up to in its time…
http://www.milnet.com/milnet/ciaops.htm
Ok that’s very simplistic reasoning, I know there’s a lot more to it, but it’s something else to think about. The American government is not an innocent lamb that’s been attacked out of nowhere. And I don’t feel that continuing the cycle of violence by bombing the hell out of the Middle-East is going to solve anything.
And all I really would like is to see people think. Those that have swallowed the government’s word whole and responded to this article with “fuck the Guardian/bleeding heart liberalists/derogatory-label-of-choice. Go USA!!!”, well, those people scare me. And to those people, I leave this:
“Go back to bed America, your government has figured it all out. Go back to bed America, your government is in control. Go back to bed America. You are free, to do as we tell you.”
– Bill Hicks
“This situation is intolerable. War is never right. Killing more people simply means that more people die. That can never be justified no matter how much hurt one person or one nation, or even one world feels.”
There were wars fought with very good reason and wars fought for very bad reason. Vietnam was a war we simply got involved in because of a conflict of idealogies. The revolutionary and civil war were fought in large part for the rights of a group of people. World War II we fought because we were attacked – damn good thing we did too, hitler might not have been defeated quite so easily without us. Some wars are a mix – the gulf war was fought because a weak ally of ours got invaded and oour other ally which provides a large part of our oil looked like it was about to get invaded too.
The war on terror was started because we were attacked and diplomacy failed in bringing these people to justice. War is necessary in many conflicts, especially when we were attacked first, and when the enemy wants to play dirty and make no move toward diplomacy. Andy Rooney (the whiny old guy from 60 minutes) was a pacifist in teh early 1940s, until he got shipped off to world war II. He saw that while war was horrible, many people were in need of liberation through force. He said “I saw how foolish it was to think that any peace is better than any war.”
Because, well, with peace at any cost desired, we would be France.
“And all I really would like is to see people think. Those that have swallowed the government’s word whole and responded to this article with “fuck the Guardian/bleeding heart liberalists/derogatory-label-of-choice. Go USA!!!”, well, those people scare me. And to those people, I leave this”
You must be looking at this thread with your liberal goggles on. I remember calling the signers of the letter out of touch liberals but never screamed my blind allegiance to the US government. You are making assumptions based on your own worst case scenarios. You think if I have no respect for these people in the letter and support the war on terrorism, I am some kind of unthinking patriot robot? Those are totally unfounded views on your part, it is just easy for you to slag people off like that.
“I’m not trying to say that underneath, every Arab secretly loves America. Many of them are very angry and I feel have reason to be. They’re not jealous of America’s wealth and power – hello, the USA is not alone in its standard of living!”
I would agree that “jealous” is the wrong word. Frustrated would be the best way to describe it. They have a centuries old society based on islam, the most important factor in their lives. We are a 200 year old secular country with the world’s largest economy and most diverse societies. What do they draw from this? That their system does not work well, that a society based on ancient religious laws will not lead to growth or innovation, only stagnation. I would be frustrated too.
“Thank you for posting this Wil. I’m amazed at the backlash by your readers.”
Ah you mean readers who don’t agree with politics that you see as obvious and the only way? Nice.
Very entertaining, thanks for posting it.
There is a grain of truth there, but if they had used less hyperbole they might get more people to listen. Personally, I view information from “Prominent Americans” with the same amount of skepticism I view information from “The US Government”.
Has it ever occured to the left that the vast majority of American’s are in favor of our current course of action because it just might happen to be the correct course of action?
Given the chance thse people will destroy us. We really have no choice and it might be easy for Lou Grant to take these positions, but I imagine his point of view might change if a dirty bomb went off in Studio City and I have no doubt that your position might change as well Will.
Dale S – my first point that you argued… that statement was aimed at those people who left crap thoughtless one-liners abusing The Guardian, Wil, or anyone else who supported the viewpoint made by the article. Not at everyone who holds a different viewpoint to mine.
As for your second point – ok I can appreciate that sentiment, especially if you add the idea hat this upstart of a young country goes and meddles in Middle-Eastern politics! 🙂
However, I echo again my point that America is not the only country (or even the only young country) in a much better economic position than the Middle-East. Having lived in Australia, England and America, I can tell you that although the numbers might be better for the US, the standards of living are not noticeably different on a day to day basis. I don’t feel the frustration is the sole reason for the hatred. African nations don’t carry the same hate for the US.
“Has it ever occured to the left that the vast majority of American’s are in favor of our current course of action because it just might happen to be the correct course of action?”
Of course, but having thought about it, buggered if I can see how this course of action would help in any way. And I’m far from being alone in the sentiment, certainly outside the US, anyway.
“Given the chance thse people will destroy us”
They’ve been hating the US for decades. So what’s _really_ prompted the government’s actions now?
I cried when I saw the first tower fall. I’ve never been affected so deeply by such a tragedy. But I can’t see how attacking the Middle-East helps the situation any.
This “dirty bomber”…why was news of his arrest held back a MONTH? Does that mean he was held for an entire month without any proper legal proceedings? Why did the release of the news coincide with one of Dubya’s pushes to rally support for an assault into Iraq?
Does anyone know? Just curious, wanting to LEARN…
Incidently, I still havent received a response to my question about weapons of mass destruction, other than “Because we can” and “its the ultimate deterrant”.
If its the ultimate deterrent, why is the USA the only country that gets to have it? If all it takes to get named a rogue state is to have attitudes that the USA may not like and to have nukes, then that effectivly allows the USA to brand anyone they like as dangerous.
Where is the evidence that Bin LAden is in Iraq? No-where. If this “war” is aimed at defeating terror, shouldnt it be going after the terrorists, rather than countries that got such a battering last time they pissed off the US that they can barely feed their population?
Come on. I can understand and sympathise with the American need to retaliate after 9/11, but why did it take an attack on America to get you guys to start trying to do something about the terrorists that have been plaguing the rest of the world for decades? Why is this “measured reaction” rapidly turning into an excuse to stomp over the Middle East, and anyone else who gets in the way? The Axis of Evil speech was very clear, it laid out the states that Bush would like to pound into dust. I’ve yet to see evidence on how that would help bring sickos like Bin LAden to justice.
“As for your second point – ok I can appreciate that sentiment, especially if you add the idea hat this upstart of a young country goes and meddles in Middle-Eastern politics!”
It’s not as simple as that. It was NATO as a whole that created israel. Many countries participated in it. In afghanistan we helped them fight off the soviets since they cold war was still raging then. Of course we made the mistake of leaving after it was over and leaving a political vacum, no goverment whatsoever. We made a mistake and now we are fixing it by helping afghanistan build a democratic and elected government. I see how you could see it as “meddling” but what is the alternative? Life and pilitics are complicated – this isn’t 1940, we can’t pretend the rest of the world doesn’t exist anymore.
“However, I echo again my point that America is not the only country (or even the only young country) in a much better economic position than the Middle-East. Having lived in Australia, England and America, I can tell you that although the numbers might be better for the US, the standards of living are not noticeably different on a day to day basis.”
You are correct, there is not much of a noticable difference between america and other developed nations. The reason is that people can only hate what they know. American culture, business and media permeates almost every country in the world. People around the world know where the empire state building is, but how much do people know about the sydney opera house? We don’t hear much about english or australian culture in teh rest of the world. If we did, there would definitley more negative attention focused on them. Don’t forget that australia and england have both participated in alot of the military action the US has taken in teh past few decades. It just happens america is an easy, visible target.
“I don’t feel the frustration is the sole reason for the hatred. African nations don’t carry the same hate for the US.”
Heh ask any Somalian what they think of America. Didn’t you ever see black hawk down? I think black hawk down is a great example of the complicated relationship has with the rest of the world. We originally started to send massive amounts of food to somalia to help those who couldn’t help themselves. Of course the corrupt warlords over there started to restrict and steal the food from teh masses, so what choice do we have but to go in quickly and catch the people who are forcing thousands of people to starve? There are always calls for america to share it’s wealth, forgive debt, send food, etc, but along with that power comes responsibility to follow through on what we give, to protect what we give them, and to make sure the people who need the supplies get it. It would be ridiculous to give money or goods to a country then sit idly by as their corrupt government or other people just piss it away.
“But I can’t see how attacking the Middle-East helps the situation any.”
Who is attacking the middle east? We wanted one fucking man and his accomplices. We gave them more than a month. Finally we were forced to go in and go after them ourselves. Countries like Iran and Iraw ARE dangerous and must be dealt with, because they have the power the resources, and the history to provide terrorists with what they need. I don’t see how you can think that there was no need for action in the middle east.
Ahhh, but it does help. Every people needs someone to blame, someone to point the finger at and say “it is their fault”. By giving everyone someone to blame we take the burdon of our troubles off our own weary minds and hearts and aim it at another. We have what 1300+ in custody now? indefinately, without the necessity of trial (if we choose not to). Who’s paying for it?? Guess… us. Ahh, but we hate them right? they deserve no rights?? why pay for their food then? why give them any? let them starve. let disease waste them away in indefinate prison sentances without trial, without hope. Or toss them in a furnace, or medical experiments. It has all been done before, ALL in the name of “patriotism.” Ahh, but it will NEVER come to that, we people in America would NEVER do that, right? Never in all our history did we do anything like this!! Not in our own concentration camps for the Japanese-Americans during WWII. Not at Wounded Knee, or the trail of tears. No, Americans would never do that…. *sigh*
Be very, VERY careful of not setting limits on what people can do to others…. History is not a pretty place to browse for what has been done in the name of “patriotism.”
Better yet, Christianity calls for peace, these people are not Christian. Therefore let us go forth, in another Crusade against all non believers. “Kill” all who do not believe in “non-violence.” What then makes us better than they? *sigh*
To everyone that posted here: The FBI, watchdogs of the Homeland Security Czar, has added you to their list of people to keep an eye on. Oh crap, I just posted here!
–NT
“Remember: history writes that Hitler’s rule began in the name of patriotism. Germany suffered terribly after the end of WWI, economy was terrible. For good or ill, many countrymen looked at many Jewish business owners doing well with angry jealousy. Hitler set forth a serious of patriotic events to bring “his country” back from it’s grave. He succeeded, until his downfall.”
Hmmm, reminds me of the Arab nations view towards Isreal today. Perfect environment for a Bin Laden to rise. The Arabs couldn’t give two hoots about the Palestinians. Jordan killed 100,000 of them when they tried to migrate there, as an example. Isreal is a perfect scapegoat for “governments” with an oppressive regime and horrible economy. And that is exactly what is happening.
As for why Australia and others are not a source for hatred, it is because they are not a superpower. The US is considered the head of the serpent to militant Islamic extremists.
Thanks Wil. War sucks. Nations create their own problems.
When will we stop thinking like nations and start thinking like a planet?
Thanks Wil. War sucks. Nations create their own problems.
When will we stop thinking like nations and start thinking like a planet?
Thanks Wil. War sucks. Nations create their own problems.
When will we stop thinking like nations and start thinking like a planet?
“Incidently, I still havent received a response to my question about weapons of mass destruction, other than “Because we can” and “its the ultimate deterrant”.
If its the ultimate deterrent, why is the USA the only country that gets to have it? If all it takes to get named a rogue state is to have attitudes that the USA may not like and to have nukes, then that effectivly allows the USA to brand anyone they like as dangerous. ”
I don’t see your point here. The US is not the only country with nuclear weapons. But we are a state with a stable, systemized government. We have 50 years of experience in the use and conditions of using nuclear weapons. We also are not driven by a grudge and religious fevor. Pakistan and India just recently built their own nuclear arsenals, and have fought three wars in recent decades. These are not people who should have nucelar weapons. Why shouldn’t Iraq have weapons of mass destruction? Hmm let’s see perhaps because they have a history of using them frequently in wars and on their own damn people? That’s a good enough reason for me to restrict these state from having these weapons. Countries large and small will have or develop their own nucelar weapons in the future. We can’t stop that. So why the hell would we give up the strategic advantage and expereince we have. It’s the equivelant of throwing away your gun in a tough neighborhood and bending over. Cmon.
“Where is the evidence that Bin LAden is in Iraq? No-where. If this “war” is aimed at defeating terror, shouldnt it be going after the terrorists, rather than countries that got such a battering last time they pissed off the US that they can barely feed their population?”
The government never claimed laden was in iraq. But with hussein in power and with the weapons he has he is a great host nation for terrorist parasites. I don’t think you should go around claiming that they don’t have enough money to feed their people. Hussein is an evil fuck, just like north korea. To keep his people controlled and angry he holds back food and the millions he makes from oil and builds mansions for himself. He is the cause of the majority of the suffering in Iraq. The goal of the war on terror is to find and destroy terror all over the world, not just bin laden. Iraq is a great example of this.
“Better yet, Christianity calls for peace, these people are not Christian. Therefore let us go forth, in another Crusade against all non believers. “Kill” all who do not believe in “non-violence.””
Heh you bring up an interesting point. You have to bring up an event that happened 300 years ago committed by corrupt christians. Here in the year 2001 the only religion that still believes in genocide of other religions and infidels is islam. It’s frightening that these people are living by such ancient, violent beliefs in the name of religion. The problem that islam has is that they have never had their version of Martin Luther. No one in islam of prominence has ever stood up and said “Ok, we must move forward with our beliefs and take a step into today’s time. We must respect human rights and avoid corruption.”
They need someone brave to guide islam into the morals and beliefs that ever other religion has realized in the 21st century.
I live probably 25 miles from Studio City and even if they set off a “dirty bomb” in Downey, I can honestly say my opinion would not change. Here’s why:
What we are doing won’t work. This Homeland Security reorg is just political slight of hand. It does NOTHING to change the two fuck-up organizations that didn’t do their jobs, the CIA and FBI. It scrambles everyone and makes the administration look busy, but in the end I don’t think it will be any more effective.
I would be pissed off. I would be terrified. I would mourn. I would want revenge, probably for weeks afterward. I would hope, however that those in charge would be stronger than my rage and bereavement.
Taking away the rights of American without due process of the law is just an excuse for sloppy investigation and enforcement of existing laws. Had they embarked on a thorough investigation before aprehending him and taking him into custody, if what they are saying is true, they would have been able to capture him and possibly members of his terrorist cell. They would have foiled the plot and they would be able to convict him under the same criminal law system that prosecuted other terrorists including the first World Trade Center Bombers, Masoui, the Shoe bomber, and domestic terrorists Timothy McVeigh and the Unabomber. Our justice system has worked and has served us well. Why do we abandon it in a time of crisis? What was the hurry?
The hurry is that the administration was under immense scrutiny and criticism following revelations that the FBI and CIA had enough dots to make a picture, but failed to communicate. This comes after months of us hearing about visas being issued to the dead terrorists that had plowed thousands of people into their grave six months prior. This came after the administration appeared bruised that perhaps they weren’t doing everything they could and should. I don’t blame the President for 9/11. I just blame him for the mess afterward. “Let’s Roll!
“It amazes me that even in my grief, I could see the true evil below the horizon”
Yada Yada true evil. True evil is the smoke that I choked on that day in manhattan. Not to mention everyone and their mother jumped onto the bandwagon that day screaming about impending war and lost rights. Anti-war protests started 9/12 here in NYC. Did they ever bother to think that finding whoever did this and stopping it from happening in the future was important?
All problems and no solutions. That’s no way to win people to your side.
“I am a person of goodwill toward America and I will not remain silent in the face of evil, and what Bush, Cheney, Ascroft, and company are saying is un-American, if not evil.
Two days after 9/11, after I could stop crying, I wrote the following on a Website I edit. It amazes me that even in my grief, I could see the true evil below the horizon:
Dear Friends,
The events of this week have left us bereft”
Stop talking to hear yourself be so damn self-righteous. People like you make me sick with all your criticism but total lack of effort and answers to help solve the problem of terrorism. Post something of use that someone has not already said here, post something other than some self-righteous diatribe you copied out of your journal. Gimme a break. Next you will be hitting us with that Benjamin Franklin quote, Ugh.
The States is wonderful country, and I’ve met many people from their that i tought were great. I’ve also enjoyed traveling in the states a lot.
that being said, i’ve got one or two thoughts to add to this thread..
1) Oil and profits are at the bottom of all of this. to think for a second that america liberated the afghanis from the taliban just out of the kindness of their hearts is insane. if you’re building an oil pipeline through a country that country’s stability is vital. The Taliban weren’t stable enough, so out they went. and considering that the states helped put them in power in the first place shows they didn’t have much concern for the citizens of that country anyhow.
2) the idea that america is the ‘worlds police’ is a bit naive…
i noticed more than a few posts give the phrase ‘if not us, then who’…
seriously…it’s got nothing to do with making the world safe for people…
it’s making the world safe for business..that’s all….
did anyone notice the worlds policeman trying to keep the peace in africa much in the last decade? while the hutus’ and the tutsis were slaughtering each other in the hundreds of thousands?
no…i didn’t either…
so don’t use that argument..it’s stale…
North america is quickly becoming a continent ruled by big business…..
which do you think cheney and the bush clan think of first when they make a decision?
you, me, peace loving folk?
no…not on your life..
they’re business partners, board members etc?
yup….absolutely…
so to wrap it all up, it’s not about us (the west) vs anyone muslim or from the the arabic world….
it’s us against the corporate leaders that have a thirst to exploit our pain and fear for profit..
and while i’m writing this, folks…please remember that muslim people are not the enemy here, and their religion is no more barbaric than any branch of christianity….
I think you misread me. The true evil isn’t Bush. The true evil is in our nature.
And, if you think about it, true evil isn’t the towers falling, planes crashing, thousands dying. The true evil is what the terrorists did to America with the result of violent acts. We reacted in ways that are hurting the very essense of what it is to be American–Freedom. And we are being manipulated by political agendas (liberal and conservative) within this country. Believe me, if Gore were in office, we’d probably be having similar conversations. The Clinton administration was no friend of most civil liberties either. Remember the Clipper Chip? Sheesh.
“and their religion is no more barbaric than any branch of christianity….”
Perhaps christianity 300 years ago. But to compare islam to modern christianity is just ridiculous. Please tell me which branch of christianity in this day and age is as restrictive and cruel to women as islam is. We burned some women alive at the stake a few hundred years ago. Muslims STILL stone women to death now because they are raped and get pregnant. I know you would love the chance to break down christianity as an evil and violent religion but islam is easily 100 times worse that the cruelest of christianity now.
The rest of your post is a huge generalization with no attention to detail. It’s generalizations like this which enable suicide bombers to rationalize blowing up children in ice cream parlors. Even if the main reason for our actions was oil, (which it is not) the saudis do not seem to mind at all. In fact, the saudis have done pretty damn well for themselves because of Oil.
Jeez, you take a nap, and look what happens.
Islam is not at fault here.
It is the practitioners, those who write the laws, who misinterpret holy writings, who are the ones who are at fault, if we are indeed looking for a guilty party.
Once we start blaming a people for the actions of a few, for the interpretations of a few, we start down a road that is very difficult to retrace.
Remember, also, that overt violence and repression aren’t the only indicators. Many Christian sects today still promote lesser roles for women; there are very few, if any, recognized female Catholic priests, and Mormon women are often excluded from positions of power in the Mormon Church. So while it isn’t overt repression, it’s psychological, and that can often have far-reaching effects.
I don’t have a lot of answers. I’m not an intelligence officer, military leader, or a politician with access to the information needed to formulate the ultimate solution. What I can do is see areas that we need to focus on. It’s easy for me to say because I am not running for office.
Answers:
1) Reoganize the CIA and the FBI into one organization. Add analysts that read the Arabic. Don’t scramble the rest of government just to make them look busy. Spend money on counter-terrorism research and operations rather than buying out oil rights in Florida, tax breaks for the richest one percent, sweet heart secret contracts with companies like Haliburton and Enron.
2) Restore due process. Every American has rights that must be maintained, no matter the crime we think they may commit.
3) Stop sending American arms to other countries because they will sooner or later be used against us. (How many Stingers are floating around out there?)
4) Stop the sabre rattling. Focus military power in fewer places. We can’t attack Afghanistan, Cuba, Libya, Syria, Iraq, AND North Korea. We don’t have the resources or the political clout world wide. Stop squandering it with empty mid-term election-year rhetoric.
Well, that’s four to start. Maybe you could suggest ideas that the President hasn’t yet suggested.
” But to compare islam to modern christianity is just ridiculous. Please tell me which branch of christianity in this day and age is as restrictive and cruel to women as islam is.”
Not all of Islam believes this!! That was the point. Islamic religion is no more cruel to women than is our own Christianic Bible. The problem is that we still see what we want to see. We take the few and the powerful as representative of all, accept it, believe it. Islam has been around for a very long time, and not all of that time were women wearing the Burkha. That is a more modern re-interpretation of their own religion, much like we did in our own American history for saying that “all men are created equal” does not refer to women and theirfore restricted their rights.
There are groups within our own american countryside that still believe women the carriers of original sin, that they should stay home and bare children only, never work. I believe we have called it “reinforcement of the Christianity Family Values”…. Well, at least they don’t have to wear the Burkha….
I wonder, if I ask a woman, which is crueler? To wear a burkha, be beaten or killed outright, or bare a child once a year until you die in childbirth…. Well, at least their are doctors who save their lives by performing unnecessary operations to prevent them from baring children until they die…. Oh but then we sue the doctors because it is our right…. Freedom, so wonderful. 300 years ago…. I wonder…. I don’t think we have aged at all in those 300 years. Wounded Knee was only 112 years ago…. Japanese-American incarceration just less than 60 years ago. I would rather not point my finger at any religious groups in the USA, but I think you need to study all the Christian groups again…. Even we have radicals.
“Once we start blaming a people for the actions of a few, for the interpretations of a few, we start down a road that is very difficult to retrace.”
You are correct, we should never blame the whole of islam. But why does it seem so few muslims (if any at all) denounce suicide bombings as working against the state of Palestine? Why is there not one person or organization supporting or organzing non-violent protest in Palestine? God if they had a muslim gandhi there this mess would have been over years ago.
“Many Christian sects today still promote lesser roles for women; there are very few, if any, recognized female Catholic priests, and Mormon women are often excluded from positions of power in the Mormon Church.”
I agree, the christian church still does have a way to go in including women in all aspects of the religion and service. But christianity still presents many opportunities for women that islam has never budged on. Give it one more generation and I think female and married priests will become commonplace.
Good morning dear. I trust you slept well. Your website is quite interesting. Q’apla!
“Not all of Islam believes this!! That was the point. Islamic religion is no more cruel to women than is our own Christianic Bible”
Ah perfect way to put it. Our bible might be out of date and even cruel, but our interpretation and practice of it has been liberal over the past century. There will of course always be nutjobs and fringe groups who take the bible literally, just like extremist muslim groups. But I am talking about the most mainstream and widely practiced version of both religions, not fringe groups. Even in the most liberal areas of islam, how many female clerics are there? Any? In a developed nation like Saudi Arabia, why are there still religious police everywhere, cruelly punishing women for small infractions, forcing women to burn to death because they are not covered.
Cmon, christianity as a whole is alot more liberal than islam as a whole presently.
I don’t hold much hope for the Christian churches.
I think perhaps one of the reasons that there are few Muslim voices speaking against suicide bombings and the like is because Western culture and society does not have much room for such people.
In addition, history has shown that peaceful protest in Palestine doesn’t work. Peaceful protest was used up to 1965, when it was realised that violence was the only way to get their view heard. Often, the position taken by those in power (in this case, the Brits, but it applies) was this:
If they’re not shooting, they’re accepting.
I did sleep well, babycakes. I hope you did too. I’m glad you like the site. Snootchies!
“I don’t hold much hope for the Christian churches.”
We’ll see. I stil think they are lightyears agead of islam. Islam is in the delta quadrant. Christianity seems to be in the far reaches of the alpha quardrant.
“I think perhaps one of the reasons that there are few Muslim voices speaking against suicide bombings and the like is because Western culture and society does not have much room for such people.”
Western culture might not, but I was talking about the middle east. You rarley hear anyone voicing opposition to the insanity of nonstop violence. You would think after seeing the result of suicide bombings and the wrathe it brings, more people would realize there has to be an alternative.
“In addition, history has shown that peaceful protest in Palestine doesn’t work. Peaceful protest was used up to 1965, when it was realised that violence was the only way to get their view heard. Often, the position taken by those in power (in this case, the Brits, but it applies) was this:
If they’re not shooting, they’re accepting.”
Perhaps there were factors that sabotaged the efforts of nonviolent protest back then. But that was about 30 years ago. The world’s attention is focused on Palestine now. Suicide bombing might have attracted the world’s attention, but continued ruthless actions like this would only lead to the world’s revulsion to their techniques and the attitude that they get what they deserve. Now they are closer to a Palestinian state more than ever, and they need to sure the world that they can be responsible and mature. BTW, nonviolent has worked very well in Palestine in the past, albeit on a small scale: http://www.peacemagazine.org/archive/awad.htm
Yes oh yes we would make an interesting couple. Couple of nuts.
“Can you please tell us your view instead of posting the same quotes that have been used 10,000 times since 9/11? Many of them seem contradictory anyway.
Posted by Dale S. at June 14, 2002 04:56 PM ”
Yep sure – Will was right on with his post –
no matter the situation is at always possible to over react without thinking.
If these things have been quoted 10,000 times since the twin towers incident may I suggest most people have not read them 10,000 times, or if they have they have not thought about them.
Thomas Paine fomented the the French and american revolutions so think of his statement above all others.
Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.
“Can you please tell us your view instead of posting the same quotes that have been used 10,000 times since 9/11? Many of them seem contradictory anyway.
Posted by Dale S. at June 14, 2002 04:56 PM ”
Yep sure – Will was right on with his post –
no matter the situation is at always possible to over react without thinking.
If these things have been quoted 10,000 times since the twin towers incident may I suggest most people have not read them 10,000 times, or if they have they have not thought about them.
Thomas Paine fomented the the French and american revolutions so think of his statement above all others.
Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.
“You would think after seeing the result of suicide bombings and the wrathe it brings, more people would realize there has to be an alternative.”
True, very true, but they are so senselessly fighting for revenge after revenge after revenge that some of them even forgot what they were fighting for. They cry out for the death of those who have injured them and do no care how many innocents die in the process….
Oh wait… we cry out for revenge too…. and innocents must die right? oh well…. I see your point. We must fight, we must kill, innocents will suffer for the greater good of the many, us.
I think we learned well…. we call them terrorists for the same actions…. hmmm…. oh yeah, now I remember, that is because we are always right. 🙂 thank you, I get it now.
“I suggest most people have not read them 10,000 times, or if they have they have not thought about them.”
I have thought about them. I have also thought about the time and context they were in. I have also thought about the different translations of what they were saying. For instance:
“Those who expect to reap the blessing of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.”
So tell me, did he mean signing petitions or spouting off on computers, or did he mean that it must be supported and defended from those seeking to destroy it through violence and terror? Things take different level of priority. Right now I see terrorism as the biggest threat to my rights and freedoms. These are people trying to destroy our society’s spirit and ideals.
It seems to me that people more concerned about their hypothetical loss of rights and orwellian fantasies still don’t believe we can be attacked again. This violence and threat from terrorists is very real, no matter where you live. I have seen it first hand and strongly believe that this is a huge imminent threat. It does not seem real to most people here, so they take up causes based on exagerrated ideals and opinions. I know what our priorities should be, and after we are attacked several more times, more people around the country will see it too.
Cute naive little ideas of how we should honor those who won our freedoms is just a waste of our time and effort. They are all dead now. There is no honor anymore. We have to focus on defending our current standard of life and freedoms from large violent attacks. That is the real threat.
“Oh wait… we cry out for revenge too…. and innocents must die right? oh well…. I see your point. We must fight, we must kill, innocents will suffer for the greater good of the many, us.”
No one is calling out for revenge against a whole country. This is not WWII. Please show me in this thread where anyone has cried out for revenge against afghanistan. People only want revenge against the people who did this to us. The public realizes that the terrorist attacks were the result of groups of men, not the effort of an entire country. We want them brought to justice, we don’t desire at all for an entire country to be brought to it’s knees. Stop underestimating the average citizen’s understanding of the situation – you do not know more than others, you merely see it a different way.
“I think we learned well…. we call them terrorists for the same actions…. hmmm…. oh yeah, now I remember, that is because we are always right. 🙂 thank you, I get it now.”
Sorry, shades of grey. There is a difference between between bombing a suspected taliban hideout and a suicide bomber walking into a store full of children, looking at their faces, and then pulling a cord to kill and mutilate them all for life. Common sense dictates there is an obvious difference between unintentional killing and intentional face to face murder. Don’t you dare ever compare that actions of a suicide bomber to those of a military mistake.
Fuck, it doesn’t matter to me. If you believe the Palestinian’s violence is justified, you are just helping them get into their own grave. Your perogative.
I don’t know as the public realizes that these are the actions of a select few. There are plenty of people willing to speak up on how all Muslims are bad and crazy, and that Islam is an evil, evil religion, and anyone who lives in a country that harbors terrorists deserves what they get.
And yes, you would think that people in these countries would revolt and speak out against those in power who condone these actions.
But if your wives and daughters were under constant threat of being killed for small infarctions, and anyone you knew who spoke out against the government (that churned out propaganda that misled the populace), would you speak out? If this situation is beyond honor, doesn’t surviving seem like a better idea than risking death by doing the honorable thing in standing up?
Just a thought, my odd lover.
“Common sense dictates there is an obvious difference between unintentional killing and intentional face to face murder. Don’t you dare ever compare that actions of a suicide bomber to those of a military mistake.”
And so we lock up 1300+ people indefinately because they “might” be one of those?? Fine. I won’t compare the actions. If “our” system of justice is so great, if we are so “right”. Why do we hold people without due process? indefinately, without trial, without representation. Why do we not give them “our” justice? because we are afraid they will slip through? so we have to give up our freedoms? change our laws. To protect US from someone walking into a store with a bomb, let us arrest everyone who doesn’t agree with our beliefs. Since you know what is best. When do we stop? when all of Islam lies dead under our feet? You said it yourself that it is the Islamic religion. Then there are other countries, other religions. Let us kill them all to protect ourselves. Let us drop bombs on churches, on market places. As we HAVE DONE.
I preach only thoughtful action, you preach action without thought. The dead call out for revenge, for justice. Kill until the dead stop calling for more dead, until everyone has joined them in God’s grace, God will protect the “right” and we are “right”. Those are the words of your enemy and you re-use them nicely for your own purposes….
Pity, that I am causing more killing…. Fine kill ME then. Drop a bomb on my house. It is an apartment, you’ll kill innocents. If you miss you will take out a retirement home, but then again, they have lived their lives. Their are children to the south and to the east, but again you serve justice…. But it is my fault you say, that is a small price to pay for justice. I am causing more deaths, so stop me. I defend those who deserve no defense. Kill me so that I may defend no more. Stop my voice so that no more of “your” innocents will die, so that only “their” innocents will die. For they are “they” and “they” do not deserve life….
Guess who calls for the same violence, unthoughtful, from the heart, in the name of his own patriotism? But you are better… you are right…. I bow to your greater knowledge and wisdom. I think we should have kept the first name for our war. “Infinite Justice” for we represent one TRUE God, we can do no wrong.
I think we should apply the same method of justice to our own police don’t you think? A man commits murder, kill him and everyone within 10 blocks around him to get him. I think it will go a long way in reducing crime. And handle the population crises too….
The piece linked to from Wil’s website is just another intentionally ill spirited diatribe directed against the U.S. by the Guardian. There’s nothing “new” in the attacks the Guardian publishes.
What scares me is that there seems to be an “ear” for this type of commentary here in the U.S.
I am far more concerned with the ACLU types that seem to care more about the “rights” of individual(s) purely dedicated to the murder of Americans everywhere, than I am at the fact “Johnny Jihad” Linde and Jose Padilla are being held for further investigation for their apparant treasonous, or at least criminal, activity.
Do I worry that Padilla is a U.S. citizen, just as I am, and that he is being held without being charged and without benefit of a legal counsel? No. I don’t.
His actions “earned” his special “enemy combatant” status when he was planning to kill as many Americans as he could with the radiologic “dirty bomb” he was conspiring to build.
The law is replete with provisions to allow “special actions” against U.S. citizens, but these provisions are rarely used. Lincoln suspended “Habeas Corpus”, one of the most basic considerations of American Law, in time of need. Padilla and Linde are feeling the “results” of the actions they elected to undertake.
Worried that your “civil rights” will be revoked? Well… I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over it… unless you join an agency whose end target is the destruction of the United States. Then I would worry.
To all the “do-gooders” that seek to free every nutcase terrorist dedicated to your very murder, I say take a good look at the graphic, grisly video of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearle’s murder. It’s not too hard to find on the web…and I’ve seen it.
They cut his head off (I mean completely OFF) with a steak knife and then held it up like an 8th grader would hold up a soccer trophy.
This is exactly what Padilla and Linde want to do to Americans and I don’t understand why some cannot understand that some things are different after Sept 11th, especially for “Americans” that joined the forces dedicated to kill us all.
“Nameless”… too bad you lack the guts to provide a name and a valid email address.