Metafilter was the first to share this story from the democratic underground. It seems that Bush was speaking at Ohio State University’s graduation. The students were told that they were expected to provide a “thunderous” ovation and if they disrupted the ceremonies in any way, they’d be arrested.
That’s right. At a public college, the students would be arrested and expelled if they expressed their unhappiness with George W. Bush.
One student, who exercised his constitutionally-protected 1st amendment right of free speech, and turned his back on Bush tells his story here.
Let’s get something straight, because I’m really tired of being told to “move to Afghanistan” because I’m “anti-American”: If we allow the Bush Administration to goose-step all over our civil rights, and we sit back quietly while Ashcroft dances all over the constitution, we no longer have a country worth fighting for.
Things like this transcend political ideology, IMHO. It doesn’t matter if it’s the Democrats or the Republicans who are currently in charge.
The thing that is so amazing about the USA is that I can (as of June 15, 2002) stand here, and loudly proclaim, “I DO NOT SUPPORT GEORGE W. BUSH, OR HIS POLICIES!!,” without fear of reprisal. When graduating students are subject to ARREST for an action like turning their backs on a person who they don’t respect, we have a very serious problem.
I hope that everyone can take off their various political mantles for a moment, and see this for what it is: the unconstitutional silencing of dissidents.
McCarthy would be so proud.
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Wil –
Double check your sources. Another Urban Myth in the making. Please don’t give in to every rumor about Bush that hits your box. You can do better than that. The administration and the faculty (most of them liberal) debunk this. Besdies…do you think students would actually put up with this? You’d have Kent State on your hands
Proteous you just proved my point from an earlier statement you have no knowledge of what is really going on your seemingly taking things at face value. You obviously didnt read thouroughly to what i said. And I do know study history in fact if I recall about a decade earlier the former Reagan/Bush senior administration allowed the CIA to arm and train the Taliban in the first place only in an effort to outst Aghanistan’s occupation by the Russians. After the Russians fled Afghanistan so did the CIA leaving an unstable and questionable group of vigilanties to radically control Afghanistan. The Taliban was left with American weapons. I’m not stating this to support them I’m saying this to point out a FACT we armed our own eventual enemies and left them out to dry. Its common knowledge that these events happen. You dont believe me do some research.
But what i merely stating is not cowardism despite that you oviously dont comprehend what i was talking about. I was stating there was a better stategic option that America has never looked at closely, ifiltration through undercover operatives, less lives are lost and more bad blood can be stopped. Your nieve to believe that Flooding them out of Afhanistan will end the terrorism. There are Alquieda supporters an cells through out the world, many not even under Bin Ladens direction. It was reported by CNN from CIA and other government intelligence that despite the custody of many suspected terrorists, terrorist cells have gone into hiding regrouped in Britain, USA, Pakistan, a whole bunch of unknown Middle eastern countries, philippines etc. In fact pakistan has reported numerous intelligence reports that alquieda head quarters has moved to their Country. And if you watched the news we have constantly been bombing Afhanistan for over 6 months. Hell we just bombed some of our allies not more than a month ago. Im not a bleeding liberal nor a patriotic conservative. Im a citizen whose been studing this extensively before any of this came to head. These facts arent meant as an excuse for them to attack us. They are merely information that perhaps maybe you can absorb than the five minute gush on your 11 o’clock news. As i said before pay some attention as a citizen. Proteous if you wish to further this agrument you can email me through my connection below. I can support all this easily, I have resources that you can look at many of which are from government reports.
You are so right, Wil. What country are we living in if we cannot speak out and feel safe in doing so? That is not the kind of country I remember growing up in, or the kind of administration I remember respecting. I cannot respect an administration that puts fear into the hearts of its citizens.
Um…what’s wrong with asking people to not be rude?
Got a problem with the man’s politics? Fine. But, there’s a time and a place for everything, and in my opinion, a graduation ceremony isn’t the time or place to make your stand. You’re just grandstanding and generally being rude.
Also, I’m sure the vocal “warning” was made in reference to the last time there was a high profile political figure in town…when Madeline Albright and others were at OSU for a “town hall meeting” and 40+ wil wheaton types shouted them down. Creating a distrubance so as to disrupt a public event is not “free speech.”
It never ceases to amaze me when people are talking politics things get out of control. Agree, Disagree, dosen’t matter, that’s the beauty
of it. To have a flame war going on, yet again, ooooooookkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy. Not as bad as last time, at least.
Goodnes me, NYC really has got his redneck nappies in a twist…
I don’t remeber being a hippie, in fact I don’t remember being old enough to be a hippy…and I have a crew cut (i’ve got better things to do with my time than fiddle with my hair).
seems to me that NYC has himself issues…tell me, big guy, are you capable of forming actual coherent debate or is hurling insults such as “hippy”, “lying A-Rabist” and “left-Wing fool” your only method of communication.
1) I’m a metal fan, not a hippy. I am an Environmental…I believe that mankind has done far too much damage to this planet already
2)I’m Scottish, not Middle Eastern, and I can see the differance between your average joe soap Arab and a terrorist. Its a pity you cannot. Also I have been totally honest throughout. Where does the “lying” part come from?
3)Its very easy to dismiss me as a nutball instead of actually thinking about what I said.
4) There needs to be a formal declaration of war so that a clear cut set of rules comes into place on who can be detained as a terrorist and who can’t. At the moment Bush and his cronies can arrest whoever they want and call them terrorists, and treat them as terrorists. Your mistake is that you assume that anyone arrested on the charge of terrorism IS a terrorist. At the moment if mistakes are made there is no system to protect the innocent accused.
5)9/11 is NOT okay by me. I never said it was. I personally want to serve Bin Ladens entrails up to Lucifer so the Prince of Darkness can butfuck them (God wouldnt wnat that cunt anywhere near Heaven, even for judgemnt). My problem with this “war” is that it is half-cocked and GOING NOWHERE. Al Quaeda don’t seem to be affected and Bin Laden is still at large.
6)My point about weapons of mass destruction is this. America has such weapons, but wants to beat down everyone else who has. double standards. oh, and this treaty…so now America can nuke the world 20 times over, instead of 50. i feel so much safer.
Proteus…you at a prat. numtie. etc etc. NIce of you to mention WWII. Is this the war where we Brits slogged away against the NAzis for years until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour and Hitler declared war on America because he saw that you could be hurt, and THEN you got off your lazy asses and got involved. Don’t give me that “if it wasn’t for us you Brits would be speaking German” shite, and quit trying to rewrite history.
Oh, and if you want to see how this “dole sucking, European Gutless Turd” fights, come over here and I’ll rip your beerswilling tits off.
When then President Bill Clinton came to Norfolk Naval Base in the 1990s, we (sailors and Marines) were advised that “any display” of disrespect would be met with similarly harsh results.
I don’t recall any free speech folks coming to our defense the way they are coming to the defense of that schmuck Air Force Colonel in San Francisco who publicly insulted GWB in a letter to the editor.
If you don’t want to hear the man speak – skip the ceremony! It’s long, it’s hot and they’ll mispronounce your name and take a lousy picture of you getting an empty diploma cover from some guy you never met! (My class had to suffer through Katie Couric – not an alum, not very interesting)
1. My apologies to Andy, who makes a very strong point. The argument is strong enough to avoid name calling (with a singular exception: Hi Fluffy!) You are absolutely right, and I will try to refrain from this in the future as it weakens the argument. In my defense I claim 3am overload but that’s a poor excuse and I apologize for calling anyone an idiot. The coward tag however, I will stand by.
2. YOUNGARTISAN, I believe I may have underestimated you as well. Perhaps it was the surrounding posts. Infiltration is a grand thing, but expect that it will take years and has a pretty thin chance of succeeding. With that said, I was responding to your criticism of military action in Afghanistan. Had we done nothing in the meantime then Al Qaeda would have continued to use Afganistan Airlines to fly their commanders all over the globe, and continued to run that country into the ground. If they had worn uniforms and stayed confined to ‘army’ bases then we could have dealt with them without any civilian casualties. Which comes back to the whole Geneva Convention /POW status for these bastards. They do not wear uniforms, they intentionally target civilians, they are not under any national command structure and they want to blend in with civilians both here and abroad in order to infiltrate and attack their targets. The nearest status they inhabit is that of “spies,” and spies, by giving up their identity as legal combatants, give up the protections granted to them.
The point is that these people had hijacked a nation and hid among the population. My main criticism of your post was that you stated we started bombing everything in sight right after 9/11, when it seems to me we showed restraint after the attacks, formulated a pretty sound plan, implemented that plan and routed the Taliban / Al Qaeda elements from Afganistan. YES FLUFFY, I know they went elsewhere…those of them that are still alive, and I’m not very sure that OBL is among them, but even if he is…They no longer have unfettered use of a nation’s resources: no free training camps, no governmental protection, no passports, etc. If Afghanistan was the first battle in this conflict then it’s hard to see it as anything other than a rousing success. Midway was such a battle in WW2. It did not mean the end of the conflict. Far more bloody battles lay ahead. But to say that more casualties followed does nothing to diminish the effects of that victory, only that what followed would have been worse without it. And the recent campaign in Afghanistan seems to me to fit that same catagory.
3. FLUFFY, really, I expected better from a Scotsman. First of all, your posts about being black in America are, as I suspected, about as far from your personal experience as Alabama is from Glasgow. Your comments have the same relevence as mine would describing how oppressive it is being a Muslim in Bangalore.
Second, do recall that I credited Britain’s stand in WW2 to Winston Churchill, and at no point did I say that “if it weren’t for the US you would be speaking German.” That is a stupid statement when applied to the UK: it only makes sense when addressed to the French. The British stopped the German invasion of the UK in the Battle of Britain — alone. But you never had the strength to pull off a D-Day, you must know that. The Liberation of Western Europe was a burden borne primarily by the United States, which would have been far longer and costlier without the Soviets, who more than anyone bore the brunt of wearing down the Nazi war machine that Liberal British and French politicians so spectacularly ignored for so many years. Early military intervention at any time during the Nazi adventures in the demilitarized Ruhr basin, the Austrian Anschluss, the Czech Sudentland — any of them — would have driven Hitler from power. Read the OKW archives of the German High Command. But no. People like you made the same sad arguments against military action, and you paid the price for it. And, of course, you made us pay, too.
As far as us “getting off our lazy asses,” let me refresh your memory: FDR and lend-lease gave you the weapons to fight that War (especially the War in the Atlantic, which you were loosing badly.) He did this against great domestic opposition. Why the domestic opposition? Well, you enlightened Europeans had been pretty much in a state of perpetual war for your entire history, and frankly, most of us are descended from people who’d had enough of that crap and sailed west.
Now your penchant for misunderstanding arguments seems limitless, so let me say that I agree we should have been in that War earlier. But here again, behold the overwhelming hypocrisy of your position. After relentlessly flaming the US for intervening and bombing the hell out of everything, you have the audacity to criticise us for not bombing the hell out of everything when it was to your advantage. Pick a position.
Finally, I’ll respectfully decline your kind offer to come over there and see how you fight. If I had a desire to visit a third-rate, miserable, socialist hell-hole I believe I’d go to Cuba, where the women are better looking and the men generally tend to leave other men’s tits alone. Of course, you’re welcome to come to California. I would certainly be gentleman enough to let you get over your jetlag, hangover, withdrawl symptoms, etc. and adjust to the sunlight, multi-culturalism and prosperity so that you wouldn’t be so disoriented that you’d wear your Heavy Metal T-Shirt, thinking you were a black Muslim in the South again. I am avidly looking forward to hearing your perspective on what life is like as a blind Australian Aborigine dealing with the racism found in western Switzerland.
First, I haven’t read every post in this thread, I’ve read as many as I could before posting, its getting late where I am. So please forgive me if I restate a point someone else has made.
3000 people died and every single one deserves to have their name remembered.
Right, on to what I have to say.
Bush scares me. I’m not american so I can’t say I voted against him, but I was not happy the day he was put in to power. I strongly disagree with his enviromental and weapons policies.
That said after the towers something had to be done and sending people in to afghanistan was something I agreed with at the time. I was glad to see the back of the Taliban, even if it did mean interfering with the political set-up of a soverign nation. I too like to think that the people of Afghanistan were happy to see a restrictive and bigoted government removed, the media reports would seem to indicate this was the case (I choose to trust the media in this case).
However as a number of people have pointed out a new tack is now required.
Acording to the artical, and thats what this thread is meant to discuss, one of the methods is to clamp down on discent. It doesn’t even matter if this really happened or not. What matters is that a large number of people read this and are willing to believe that their government and respected authorities (such as the university staff etc.) are capable of this. This kind of distrust is, to me, indicative of a government that is not acting in the way the public desires (and thats all the government is, a small bunch of people running the country as the majority wants it).
Whats worse is, since sept 11, a large number of privacy invading laws have been passed in various countries around the world. Now I am willing to accept that in extraordinary times it may be necessary to give up certain liberties. However governments have been all too willing to grab these new powers, without really asking if the public were willing to give them up in the first place.
Now, please don’t say that I’d rather sept 11 go unpunished just so I can keep a few petty freedoms. I’m talking about not wanting my goverment (In my case Great Brittain) to monitor everything I do on line, who I call, my financial details etc. Its beginning to look like the post office (mail) will have the right to get access to my confidential data. The post office?
I’m wandering off topic here. The point I’m trying to make, in a round about mannor, is that the culture of distrust that is coming in to being will not help to stop further attacks against any of our nations.
This thread seems to have contained a number of posts indicating some people think all (or 99.9%) of Arabs are against us. this is a short sighted and bigoted view point. Its also worth noting that most of the groups that we relly need to stop such as Al Queda (spelling?) have exactlly the same view point, they are tarnishing us with the same brush as the small percentage of westerners that have hurt them. They acted on this view point and we are now (rightlly) hunting them down. Do we really want to be falling in to the same traps they have.
I’m going to stop here. I’ve probablly pissed off a fair few people, but we are all entitelled to our opinions, even those of us who disagree with each other.
“Never again”, a better statement is “Never”.
Ophois
Before I start I realise that this is a voice from a non-American country (Scotland to be exact) and as such I cannot comment exactly on not only what has been before on this post or on the effects of directly what happened on that tragic day on the 11th of September. Though what I have read, if it is true, terrifies me on a level not felt since rise of the Third Reich.
I know that what may or may not have actually happened was probably nothing like it was described but think on this, from the view point of an outsider it seems from what I have seen of Mr George “I want a War” W Bush I could very well believe it. I have seen through these posts varying arguments and discussions on the events of 9-11 and this OSU event. I have always been a bit of a free thinker, gasp, does that mean I’m wrong, is it somehow now wrong to think for ourselves to peacefully demonstrate against policies and people. Not unless the Fourth Reich has risen and we’ve been all too blind to notice!
We are (as stated in the US constitution – by my understanding of it) all free people. Does this not mean that we should be able to publicly (and privately) protest and discuss the political, military and social issues effecting us directly and un-directly? I think so and to say otherwise is a denial of not one human rights but in my opinion something much deeper.
Now I have never been that great at getting my point across but in essence what I am trying to say is in general America portrays it self as some great self-important giver and protector free-speech and liberty for all. It these laws, this act and what happened at OSU is true, then you need to take a look (as do we in the UK) at our government and ask, “do they speak for us?”
Before I leave you I just want to state one thing for the record. NYC… Who urinated in your gene pool? I have never met someone on-line who is so, so, backward. You jump to conclusions and through peoples arguments back at them like a school-kid in a playground. You do not seem to be able to grasp the simple truth that “all men were created equal” or do you like some here, believe more that, “all men are created equal, it just some are more equal than others.”
Oh, buy the way NYC, read Animal Farm if you don’t get where that came from. That is of course unless your mind is so closed your free thinking has packed up and went a way on holiday.
Sorry about that, needed to get that off my chest. I hope what I have said made sense and that I have not offended anyone unduly.
Right, here goes…my discertaion on the life and hardships of a blind Australian Aborigine dealing with the racism found in western Switzerland.
Or not. Funny Idea though.
Flippin eck, I really got ya rilled up there, didn’t I, Proteus. First of all, I would like to point out that you made this one personal between us…not me.
Secondly, I found the comment about the French very funny. It looks like you understand what its like to be a Scotsman in a socialist hellhole more than I thought. Like me, you have eyes and ears and the ability to read and learn. I KNOW im not black, nor American, but Americas reputation for treating its non-white population poorly has been earned for a long time, and is quite commonly known about.
Also, about WWII. Everyone I have talked to…mostly University Graduates (and Im not talking about naff little pretend Uni’s here) agree that Americas main strength in WWII was that you had so many troops and weapons..and why? Because your forced did not get directly involved until you were attacked directly. I freely acknowledge your countries contributions. I do not deny that we could not have won D-Day without you. I just wish you had gotten invilved sooner.
You have just accused me of having a terminal ability to misunderstand. LEt me restate my position yet again.
1) I am not against war…as long as it has a very good reason (which exists, I do not and never have denied that), and a clearly set objective (also true – defeat terrorism), against the RIGHT target. This last one I cannot agree with as regard this war. You see…you can bomb all the training camps and staging posts you want, and true enough the Taliban (who, as I have previously stated, needed destroying) can no longer aid Bin Laden. BUT, the assault into Afghanistan, has failed to capture Bin Laden, or crush Al Quaeda (istead they have scattered and gone to ground, no doubt to plan another atrocity), has gotten a lot of innocents killed in the process (Scratch has kindly forwarded me a document discussing the exact numbers which I admit are fewer than I previously believed), and is now becoming nebulous, disjointed and its targets irrational. It looks a lot like Bush is pointing fingers at MIddle Eastern countries he happens to dislike and saying “your next”, sometimes for spurious and hypocritiacal reasons.
2) I am against the loss of personal liberty, such as the controls on how people may act in Bushs presence, freedom of speech or not, and the similar laws now coming into practice which make everyone under suspicion of the possibility that some of them might be a terrorist, laws that give Government bodies unprecedented powers to snoop into our private lives. I am especially worried where this War is concerned. A “war” against terrorism cannot have an easily definable conclusion, and will carry on for a very, very long time. Those liberties may be missing for so long that people will read about them in history books, and know no more than that. And there is no garantee that they will be given back when the whole thing is over.
3) MY stance on the war is not hypocritical. I am annoyed that America stood by and allowed (in some cases encouraged) terrorsim for decades, until terror struck America with such terrible force. Then all of a sudden America is a champion of peace, as if the rest of the world hasnt been trying to deal with it for years already. I wish you had become involved sooner.
I do not like the military assault in Afghanistan because I do not believe it will ultimately defeat terrorism. Every terrorist you kill is a martyr to someone, and they may take up the “cause”. There are complex social and political reasons why many countries hate and resent America, but these have been marginalised to a simplistic “good vs evil” stance, instead of us in the West coming to terms with these problems and dealing with them. It is far too easy to demonise the enemy, for it makes it easier to kill them, but it is harder to understand their position. I admit that there are those whos hatred is so great that no reason will prevail, but that hatred grew from something…finding and removing that factor would help prevent other fanatics appearing in the future. This war may kill all the fanatics eventually…but we need to esnure that no more come to take their place, by giving them no reason to.
One last thing. I never drink when I fly, and I dont drink much. I dont take drugs either, and I know what sunlight is. We over here have other types of weather. As Bill Hicks said “only a lizard likes it hot and sunny every day”.
Narf.
Is there are Redbuddha in the building?
I hate to say this but the terrorist are winning. They are getting what they wanted. They wanted to terrorize us — they got it. They wanted to disrupt our way of life — they got it and are getting more. WHEN ARE WE GONNA WAKE UP!
I am a PROUD AMERICAN who teaches English (and American Culture) in South America. Everyday I listen to people say how they are powerless to fix their corrupt governments and I always tell them, “You live in a democracy. YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT!”
Have we forgotten this? How can I face my students as a good American role model when my fellow country men and women aren’t standing up and defending what I and many feel is one of the most well written documents in history: The US Constitution?
My friends told me that when I returned I would find a very different country and after reading this thread, I’m starting to see exactly what they were talking about.
When I graduated College last Fall, our commencement speaker actually got booed off stage for her speech. She was telling the new graduates not to give up civil rights so easily just because the Georgenator says too.
Sacramento Sucks Ass sometimes.
Hi Wil!
Here’s the problem. Let’s say that they allowed a protest at the OSU Graduation ceremony. Do you think some of the people seeing the President publicly disrespected might have been upset? Have you ever heard of the concept of “fighting words”? The graduation ceremony was held in a stadium packed with people. What result do you think could be reasonably expected if thousands of people ended up engaged in a brawl in the stadium? Do you suppose that some people might in fact be injured, or might actually DIE from being stampeded or pushed off of the balcony in a melee?
If the protesters wanted to stage a protest, they could have, at another venue (or they could have joined the protesters outside the stadium, for that matter). Instead, they decided to stage their protest in the most disruptive manner possible, where it was likely to cause both damage to property and damage to people. As the old saying goes…”You can’t yell ‘FIRE!’ in a crowded theater” and expect it to be considered free speech, unless the theater is actually ON FIRE. The University stepped in to PREVENT violence and harm to people and property. The protesters should have chosen another place to have their protest.
Fluffy, this debate is doing some good after all. You’re making more sense. Still, consider this:
1 On your telling us what it’s like to be Black in America:
Think about how annoying this must seem to us. We have heard this again and again from France, England, Sweden, and any number of other lily-white nations with populations who’s genetic homogeneity goes back thousands, if not tens of thousands of years. America’s racial problems are undeniable. What is also undeniable is the progress we have made, but ignoring that progress is not what torqued me about your comments. I just find it incredibly fatuous for people to talk about racial issues in societies that have no diversity to speak of. Now before you open fire about how integrated Europe has become, let me remind you that once the racial mix in Europe started becoming anything other than monolithically white, presto, race riots in England, Frange, Germany…hey, even the Swedes got their blood pressure high enough to open a window and look around.
I live in what must be the most ethnically diverse city in the world. Los Angeles has at least 72 distinct ethnic communities, and I work with most of them every day without so much as a thought. The people who died in the World Trade Center were white, black, Asian, British, Middle eastern, African and from everywhere else on this planet. These people were sitting around the water cooler getting a donut and working togther like a family. That’s the way things are over here. Your information is largely 40-120 years out of date, as we forced ourselves to start to tear racism out of this culture. And the work continues. But we are doing it. And Europeans, I’m afraid, have yet to really begin.
So forgive me for having a little contempt for white Scotsmen telling other white Scotsmen how terribly racist we Americans are.
These gears have a lot of friction, but the machine works and has produced incredible prosperity for all Americans. The poorest US citizens earn more than 93% of the world’s population. How many billions wish they could get here and experience some of this horrible racism first-hand?
Colin Powell would have been president had he decided to run; his poll numbers blew GWB away. I wish he had run. I would not only vote for him, I would CAMPAIGN for him. The vast majority of Americans feel the same way. When can we expect to see a black British Prime Minister? A Black German Chancellor? A Latino or Asian French President?
As a matter of fact, I can not recall seeing ANY black European politicians in any capacity whatsoever.
And while you may not like the fact that Europeans were unable to stop the horrible hemmoraging in the Balkans, the fact is that Serbians and Croats and Albanians and Azerbijanis all have restaurants next to each other down at the corner mall over here. Because when these people come to the United States, they are expected to leave that nonsense behind them. Yes, that Northern Ireland nonsense. That Middle East nonsense. That Greek / Cypriot nonsense.
In the days after September 11th we saw Jewish women wearing Muslim headgear outside of mosques to reassure the Islamic Americans that this wasn’t about them. Where else in the world does this happen? I see French Palestinians throwing molotov cocktails at French jews, and Europeans have the audacity to call US racist and unsophisticated?
When 12% of Scotland is black, and 35% is Latino, and 5% is Asian, THEN we can talk about how our countries deal with racism.
On Sept 11th the only color people we saw staggering out of that wreckage were GRAY. Don’t lecture us on how we treat each other when your backyard is blood-soaked from racial and national conflicts without purpose or end.
2. Loss of rights. The US constitution is, I believe, the only document of its kind in the world that specifically states that powers not granted to it by name are reserved to the people. All this hysteria about GWB at OSU is ridiculous. The University has a right to prevent 10 malcontents from spoiling an address to the student body, whether the speaker is the President of the United States or Mr. Rogers. No one ever said that people could not protest the President during his stay. They did say, rather stupidly, that they will not allow people with a political axe to grind to ruin the commencement ceremony of many thousands of students. I know asking a liberal to behave himself is like giving a cat a bath, but their father issues are their problem and does not give them the right to disrupt the commencement without facing the consequences. They have not been asked not to protest if they want to. They HAVE been asked not to do it in polite company, and this of course sets them off like wild geese. Protest over there, Junior Justice Avenger…I for one would like to hear what the President has to say.
3. You are annoyed that America waited for terror to hit home before we took action. Again, what a no-win situation you always seem to put us in.
If anti-French terrorism were met with a swift, strong FRENCH military response, no one would be more surprised, delighted or supportive than the US. Ditto England, Germany, etc. But, since you chose not to support a viable military, there is no one left to do it but us. So, we’re bomb-crazy cowboys if we, on the other side of the globe, can no longer wait for Europeans to stop the bloodshed in Kosovo and we take action, or else we’re self-centered arrogant elitists who turn a blind eye to the world’s problems. We’re condemned if we act, we’re condemed if we don’t act, and flip the historical response with the hypothetical one and we are merely condemned by different groups at different times.
The sad fact is that the entire world is so completely fixated with the United States that you hold us responsible for everything. If a bus is 4 minutes late in Karachi, it’s the American’s fault. Fujimora loots Peru for two terms? God Damn Americans let him get away with it. Currpot Saudi regime got you down? Stinking Filthy American’s support them.
Actually, yes we do. Would you like us to come over and give you a new government? The nerve of you arrogant Americans! Okay then, keep the one you have. You heartless American bastards. Churchill said that people get the governments they deserve. Right again.
But wait, we’re not done! McDonald’s in France? America’s World domination hegemony continues. (As a specific example, I have just checked the Washington Yellow Pages, and the Department of Global Hegemony either doesn’t exist or has an unlisted number. So I take that to mean that the US government does not pay huge subsidies to McDonalds to offset their horrible financial losses. Therefor, I can only assume that McDonalds is in France because ENOUGH FRENCH PEOPLE EAT THERE to keep them in business. It’s appalling food; everybody knows that. But I’ve had the occasional Big Mac Attack and the fact that Frenchmen and Englishmen and Chinese might want one too is the reason those businesses are there. But no, it’s all part of a crass American plan to dominate the world. )
(By the way, can you possibly tell me why the rest of the planet seems to be so consistently enamored with the very WORST stuff we produce? Just curious. )
So, if I understand you correctly, we are guilty for not getting militarily involved when terrorism strikes someone elses country, and we are ALSO guilty when we DO respond when terrorism strikes at home. And this from our Allies? How many dead Scotsmen are buried on the banks of the Potomac, fallen in defense of America? ZERO. Walk through Normandy, or the Argonne, or Anzio and count the crosses.
Hey thanks for the help and support, Allies. When the war ended, the US had undisputed Naval, Land and Sea power, a monopoly on nuclear weapons, and a Bomber fleet that could deliver them anywhere in the rest of a world ruined by European and Japanese Imperialism. We could have planted our flag in every capitol of the world, so what did the evil, stupid, arrogant Americans do?
We kept Gaum as a territory for trans-pacific refueling flights, we scrapped out tanks and ships and planes, and we came home. Oh, and uh pumped billions of dollars into rebuilding the nations that had just tried their mightiest to wipe us out. Where in history has such a thing happened.
You know Fluffy, I don’t much mind it when Muslim Fanatics say bad things about the US. I know what kind of life they lead, But to hear it from Brits and Canadians and the French, THE FRENCH, who surrendered in two weeks and who we allowed to march first into a Paris liberated by American blood…well, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
We are often accused of not caring or knowing much about what goes on in the rest of the world. Absolutely true. We see here, every day, people from around the world working together to produce more absorbent paper towels or ultrasonic toothbrushes or whetever. Everyone here came from somewhere else. Yes, even the Noble Indian. The most ambitious, bold determined people from around the world come here as they have for 2 centuries to get a new start and to leave all these useless, endless blood feuds behind them. So maybe now you get a glimpse of why we don’t like being called racists by all-white societies, bullies by self-inflicted eunuchs or idiot savages by people whose greatest cultural achievement is getting a pig to dig up fungus with its nose.
Oh, one last thing. Bush is pointing at certain countries and saying “You’re next” because they ARE next. Americans have learned from European history what the Europeans steadfastly refuse to see, and that is that we will not just sit around and wait for Sept 11 to happen again. We may not be able to prevent it from happening again, but we will damn sure be certain that it will carry unpleasant circumstances for those involved. Faced with enemies who throw grenades into Bat Mitzvahs, I’ll take a West Texas Sheriff over a pasty coffee-table truffle-eating wanker any day.
So, what exactly do trolls eat? And, why do you keep feeding them? They’re already the size of Jabba the Hutt, how much bigger do you want them to get?
The “student” Will mentions is actually a female, and she was not a student at the time. She was attending the ceremony as a “friend.” This is an important story, but a lot of inaccurate buzz has been swarming around it.
I didn’t vote for George.
I did read Wil’s comments, the Democratic Underground comments & most of the comments here.
I don’t think George is anything like Adolf Hitler in any regard.
I do think that a few people are not fond of the current administration, believe that “the man” is out to get them, and are choosing to embellish a series of events to fit their particular world view.
I do think that a lot of probably well-meaning people are willing to jump on a bandwagon with very limited amounts of information. To me, that is the true danger. It is exactly what allows the Hitlers, McCarthys, and Saties* to flourish.
*Several of you may be familiar with the TNG episode “The Drumhead”. It might be worth another viewing at this point in time.
I am the person being discussed regarding Ohio state’s commencement.
For starters, I am a man….the stories I have read referring to me as a “she” are incorrect in that point only.
First of all, to those wondering….the announcement of arrest and expulsion was not made in the stadium…..it was made, just not in front of 55,000 people. It was made in front of the graduating students, twice.
Second, we were NOT yelling ‘fire’ in a crowded theater….we weren’t yelling at all! To associate us with a dangerous act is insulting! To claim that we should be denied our right to silent protest because we “might” start a brawl? How about keeping out all the pro-Bushies who would have punched us? We had made our intentions perfectly clear…silent protest, period. Funny how those who disagree with us alweays seem to think of violent acts ensuing.
Third, I am not embellishing ANYTHING to fit my world view. I was there, it happened to me, and any deviation from the facts are your own embellishing to keep your head in the sand as to what rights are being stripped away.
John K….it happened. You have to learn to deal with that. It’s not an urban myth. It’s reality. I was there. many others were. Just because you weren’t there doesn’t make it false. Have you ever been to New Zealand? If not, then how do you know it exists?
Finally, NYC….someday your penis will be normal size. Then it will be all right and you can live a normal life and won’t have to belittle everybody else. We’re all praying for you!
AngryWhiteDemocrat, thanks for confirming that this really happened as you say. And that you really are a reliable source. I believe it now completely since no one has ever lied on the internet before 😉 Sheesh…
Hi AngryWhiteDemocrat,
I’m confused at your interest in my genitals, (as you say you’re a male) but we will let that go. As a Democrat, I thought you must be anti-religion, but I will accept prayers from anyone, and appreciate them. Thank you.
If you are who you claim to be, which I don’t for one moment believe, then you must be glad you weren’t beaten. At least I assume you weren’t beaten? As you must know the purpose of the event is to honor the graduates, not perpetuate your little agenda. If you wanted to protest, go outside and hold signs and whatever you protesters do. You could have even made a stronger statement by, not attending. That loss would have upset the entire free world.
No one is going to ever let anyone crash and destroy a pleasant event by a handfull of leftists.
So you hate Bush, get over it. He is President and he will be for a long time. He isn’t going to pull any Clintons’ to get thrown out of office or just impeached (like Billy boy).
Yopu can protest, but you and your ilk are just too damn stupid to realize where you should do it. DUH! Where another person’s rights start yours ends. You, in the insipid ‘protest’, would have violoted the rights of those ligitimately in that hall to get honored with their diplomas.
Buck up, be a gentleman, and honor the graduates. Be a bigger man than Bush, by honoring them, the graduates. Got it, probably not. But I was giving it the old college try.
By the way, KJB and Lerch, let us not forget the term redneck was first given to the British (by the Zulus) killing all the Zulus in South Africa, because of the sunburns they got in the hot sun.
As far as I know my neck is not sunburned, I have a rather nice tan. But again thanks for asking. Oh yeah, the phrase all men are created equal is from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. It further goes on to say that people should have the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. With your potential policies, I would die like those 3000 other Americans. Sorry, but I’m not going to let that right be violated by Scottish, French, A-rabs, or anyone else, at least without a fight. Also you don’t need to be arab to be an A-rabist. Alot of people in the US State Dept. are arabists. That is one of the reasons why the US didn’t take out Saddam in the Gulf War.
My family’s orginally from Scotland too, so I guess that you got a little pee in your pool too. CHEERS!
Proteus, I think you make some excellent comments, but Colin Powell is far to liberal for me. I would prefer, Alan Keyes. He is a bright honest man firmly set into the concept that the constitution should form and mold government, not the other way around.
He would let the liberals get away with creating unconstitutional laws to get their agenda passed. For example abortion and motor-voter laws. They are totally unconstitutional, but for different reasons.
NEVER AGAIN!
I agree RingLeader, AngryWhiteDemocrat is not that person and should not be believed.
After all I’m not really Wil!
NYC
NEVER AGAIN!
Dear AngryWhiteDemocrat:
You state:
“To associate us with a dangerous act is insulting! To claim that we should be denied our right to silent protest because we “might” start a brawl?”
Please see the link to Buzzflash about an event where carrying signs caused an outbreak of violence.
http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/2002/06/17_Dictatorship.html
“St. Petersburg Times; St. Petersburg, Fla.; Jun 6, 2001; CHRISTOPHER GOFFARD;
Abstract:
The crowd at Legends Field jostled them, hurled invective, grabbed their signs from their hands and even threw punches, the protesters say. Security officers saw the disturbance and gave the protesters a choice: Give up the signs or leave.”
The University’s policy was meant to PREVENT violence, as the above post shows can happen when hecklers mingle with normal people.
You can’t have it both ways. True, the actions by the students were supposed to be nonviolent. However, (and it’s a BIG HOWEVER) if you tweak a bull’s nose, and wave a red cape in front of its face, odds are good that it will charge, and YOU are responsible for it. The actions planned by the TurnYourBackOnBush crowd was planned to be peaceful, but it WAS intended (or they should have known) to cause an immediate breach of the peace, and therefore give Bush more bad press. Your actions (and your comments made before the police escorted you out) show that your purpose was to be disruptive. Tell me…When you went into the stadium, you WERE planning on being disrespectful to Bush, weren’t you? You knew about the protest beforehand, didn’t you? You WERE trying to stir up a ruckus, weren’t you?
If you go into a bar looking for trouble, and start insulting a man’s girlfriend, the expected outcome is that there will be a fight. True, all you did was utter some inflammatory words, and then publicly be disrespectful of the President of the United States, but you got off LIGHT. You’re lucky some of the other attendees didn’t throw you the beating you so richly deserved. I guess that means that Conservatives can control themselves better than you can.
Wil,
If you read this can you shut this comment board down. It is really becoming a breeding bed of flames. Nothing is getting solved with blind stupidity and lack of information.
NYC:
I have a theory about why AngryWhiteDemocrat wasn’t beaten. If you read his post on DU, you’ll see that he took an infant with him, and had the infant in his arms when he was escorted out. Did you ever see the Steven King movie “The Dead Zone” with Christopher Walken and Martin Sheen? When Walken’s character started shooting at Sheen’s character, Sheen’s character held up a baby and hid behind it while running for cover. I suspect the same forces were at work with AWD. 😉 Seriously, what kind of person takes an infant with them when they KNOW they’re going out to try to get into trouble? He’s lucky the kid’s not in foster care now, and he’s not in jail on child-endangerment charges.
I’d like to point out I never called anyone a redneck.
Bigot, yes. Redneck, no.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled bickering.
NYC, carry on being a little good oblivious worker droid surpressing your own thoughts out of irrational fear and lash out at others who don’t supress their own thoughts in a similiar way. It’s amazing, you’re a complete tool for the people you’re defending and you’ll never realize it. Where do you get all your information to argue? Do you copy it from your role models on CNN and their right-wing shows? Oh that’s right, those bloody liberals control the media.
200 years from now people are going to look back at you and other’s like you as examples of what it is to be socialized and ultimately controlled by a state.
Yes, come back with some silly arguement and continue attacking people. It’s the only logic you know how to operate on. You’re a tool to fear, irrationality and your American socailzation.
God Bless
NEVER AGAIN
borg389 …
But be careful. If you protest while Clinton is speaking, you WILL get arrested, even if you do it outside.
———–
You don’t know what the hell your talking about borg389, read this.
————————————————-
President Clinton Welcomes, Encourages Protests at Ohio State
http://clinton6.nara.gov/1996/10/1996-10-29-president-remarks-to-the-people-of-columbus-oh.html
MEMBERS OF AUDIENCE: Dole-Kemp. Dole-Kemp.
AUDIENCE: Booo!
THE PRESIDENT: Wait, wait. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Just listen to them. Wait a minute. Why are they screaming like that? We heard you. Now, how about the First Amendment. We heard your message, now you listen to ours. (Applause.) This is a university. This is a university and we have respected their free speech. They won’t respect ours because they hate the truth. We’re better off, and we had to run over them to do it. (Applause.)
Firstly, NYC the handle is LURCH… If your going to try and insult me get my name right. Now I know this post is getting TOO long and TOO heated but if you will indulge an obviously person from an inferior country too speak… Ahem…
Proteus, if I may respond (even though I know that Fluffy will). “Lily-white nations”, “no diversity”, the UK, and please I may be a proud Scotsman but even I admit that I come from the United Kingdom (on occasion, and this is such as occasion) and it is a very diverse population, I admit no were NEAR the diversity of America and I adit that it is good to see that racial coexistence (etc etc) can exist and work, I believe some areas of the UK could do well to learn some of the lessons the US have learned. But the comment that got me was lily-white, now I am presuming you are referring to our mainly white skin and not insulting the colour of our backbone?
I digress, you continue, “produced incredible prosperity for all Americans. The poorest US citizens earn more than 93% of the world’s population.” Now, those on this board who know me (about 2 I guess) now I hate western culture and its greed and I believe, nay, know now from your WONDERFUL statistic that America is again consuming and absorbing resources which really those poor starving people in developing countries really should have, countries like, those of central Africa, Afghanistan, Iraq… Oh, sorry, I forgot everyone who does not stand in lien is obviously evil aren’t they… Sorry about getting carried away that is a touchy subject for me, my apologies.
FYI – “ANY black European politicians in any capacity whatsoever.” The latest cabinet reshuffle in the UK has appointed a black cabinet minister. “Jewish women wearing Muslim headgear outside of mosques to reassure the Islamic Americans that this wasn’t about them. Where else in the world does this happen?” Britain, I know for a fact, Christian women walked with Islamic to the shops, churches surrounded mosques to prevent any racial tension boiling over. We have a very large population of Muslim and Indian descended people in this country and that is our racism, this is our boiling hot pot. As regards you talk about when we can or cannot talk about racism, let me tell you racism is not just based on colour of skin (as I am sure you know) but we have our own tensions, Ireland, Scotland-England, Asian/Indian-BNP (British National Party – i.e. Bigots and racists). We know racism, we just don’t have it exactly like you.
“Churchill said that people get the governments they deserve. Right again.” Yeah, you guys have a psychopath. As regards you r comments on Scottish solider and American military power I will not respond for I have been told to kept my anger in check I do not believe that this is the time or place to be opening old wounds like the thousands of Scottish soldiers who have died in the defence of ours and other people countries. No, lets take one, the Gulf War. American forces destroy a British tank with Scottish soldiers in it, killing them. My Father had to council one of the familles, allies! Get your facts rights… People from both our nations have died alongside each other in every war and yet the wars keep on happening. War is death, that the truth!!!!
“I’ll take a West Texas Sheriff over a pasty coffee-table truffle-eating wanker any day.” Me, I’ll take Peace.
Next, NYC again, I know I shouldn’t but he such an easy target. “I will accept prayers from anyone, and appreciate them”, except this prayer from a true believer. I pray that you will open your eyes and see the word in the bible. Peace reigns where Christ stands.
You now NYC, there are times when I despair at humanity no matter where they are from. My heart broke in pain and agony on September 11th. I was left broken when I saw the AIDS children in Africa whose only sin was being born. My heart quivers overtime someone accuses another of being wrong because they think different, because they are not like them even it is just because we may not like the same man who happens to be in charge of a nation. Grow Up, get a life, learn from the world mistakes, war solves little. Be a real rebel, extend a hand in peace and love. There are more powerful things in this world that American might, man can bring a nation to its knees, even a world. Think, pray then act.
I’m off, again no offence is really intended any hurt I apologise for. I make mistakes as do all and I am sorry for them all.
NEVER is always better than NEVER AGAIN.
Angry White Democrat (are there any other kind?)
I’ve also heard from two others that were there. And their recollection was different than yours. One democrat, one what I would call a conservative Democrat. Yes there was a ruckus. But NO freedoms were taken away. The way Wil described it was not how they described what happened.
I can understand you being angry because your worldview is not embraced by all. But the representation that Wil provided was all together truthful.
Sorry.
My last post should read “But the representation that Wil provided was NOT altogether truthful.”
For all the name calling and back biting, here is a quote that I found on the American Library Association. Just a thought to pass along.
What could have been an interesting thread has turned into a melee. I haven’t heard so much name calling and reference to genitalia since I was a teenager witnessing a street fight after school. Makes me wonder what our congressmen and senators REALLY say behind closed doors.
Lurch.
This is the fundamental difference between socialists and capitalists. We will not be satisfied until that other 93% is making a decent living. You will not be satisfied until the few people with reliable electricity are living in mud huts. I’m sure you and your philosophical cohorts have a plan to get the world to zero power consumption, and I’m sure you will continue to discuss it on the internet, jet off to Green conventions, and blather on about it over satellite TV and radio, you mind-boggling hypocrites.
Try to get this into your heads, although frankly, I’m not encouraged given the length of time you have had to learn this simple lesson:
We do not go to Afghanistan or Africa and steal prosperity from starving people. WE MAKE OUR OWN. And they could MAKE THEIR OWN TOO if they didn’t have socialist ninnies like you telling them it’s someone elses fault.
Look at Hong Kong: zero resources, fabulous standard of living, an amazing place where people work their asses of in order to live well. Then look at Russia, a land so rich in national resources that you could boil the earth and make a terrific soup — a basket case of poverty and unmet need. They are not poor because rich people are taking things from them, they are poor because their political systems will not allow them to be rich. Those poor countries that you mentioned are run by insane dictators, kleptocracies, and religious fundamentalist loonies.
Now, these poor people you keep wailing about: “Iraq, Afghanistan, and ‘Africa,'” are either poor because their people are defective or because their political systems are. Not being a racist myself, and seeing how well people from these regions do when they come to free countries, I conclude that they owe it to their politics, which is not as a simple a thing to fix as, say, blaming everything on America.
Don’t you people ever READ? How many socialist failures will it take for you to understand that 5 year plans and state controlled economies DO NOT WORK. How many more people are you going to kill? 30 million starved and executed in the USSR, a like number in China, I could go on…
This idea that me working hard to better my life makes you poorer is the natural result of people who would rather curse the darkness than light a candle. Poverty, disease, and starvation have been the norm for all of human existence. There is nothing romantic or pleasant about poverty or starvation, and I’d much rather pull these people up then keep them poor as an interesting Anti-American statistic. But then again, I’m a conservative, and we have a great deal more compassion for actual people than the liberals who treat them like zoo exhibits.
Regarding your friendly fire incident. That is a horrible tragedy. That we lost more American and Allied lives to friendly fire than to enemy combat is a testament to the effectiveness of Coalition military forces but cold comfort to the Scots, Englishmen, Canadians and many more Americans who have died in this fashion. Nevertheless, the causalties are far less than what they would have been without that overwhelming firepower, but again, cold comfort.
That wasn’t my point. No doubt Scots have fought and died disproportionately for the Empire — sorry, commonwealth. My point was, if you care to re-read it, how many foreign soldiers have been shipped over here to fight and die for no other reason than to keep US free. Again, I stand by zero. Largely because we have always been committed to defending ourselves, which to me is the very first moral obligation a person or state has, and the source of this thread of weak-minded braying about peace. Peace is swell. Peace at all costs is a sure recipe for war. That’s from your history, not ours.
The Americans certainly did not win WW1 on the battlefield, but it is undeniable that the constant arrivals of endless streams of American reinforcements DID cause Ludendorff and the Germans to risk it all in the disasterous 1918 offenses that finally brought down Germany. Many Americans – thousands – died in the trenches of a war that posed no threat to us whatsoever.
World War II cost a lot more American lives to rectify yet another European bloodbath. We spent a large sum rebuilding our enemies countries, and a far, far larger sum being the bulwark against 50 years of Soviet agression.
We’re not asking for thanks — we know you too well for that. But we wouldn’t mind hearing a little less crybaby bullshit from you Europeans when we have another 3,000 dead Americans to bury, understand?
Scots are legendarily tough fighters. The Scots Greys at Waterloo may have turned that battle and the course of Europe single-handedly. Scottish engineers essentially invented the industrial revolution, and Scottish scientists and doctors may have saved more lives than those taken in all of humanities wars, combined, though innoculation and antibiotic research.
All of these magificent achievements are, sadly, part of the Western culture that you dispise, as is this internet that you are using to sing your self-pity around the world. You used to be such a proud, confident, tough people. Have they all become like you or they busy working while the rest of you blog away the day?
Well hell…let just burn flags in protest at the next bush speech.
who knows who wanted to protest and who did not? was the commencement the proper place to show distain for the president? i know its the first amendment.. but anybody got common sense? does the first amendment give u the right to show total disregard for courtesy?
bus people in.. well u think being the leader of the free world.. people might actually wanna hear him speak? i dunno.. most of his speeches are the same…..
i think people too often follow the pack. seeeeeeee i think a minority believe the bush should be hated and they honestly rub off on the group that does not know what they believe. so now u got the disgusted leading the mindless……..
everyone has opinions.. and well i guess i would say overall i am happy with the job bush is doing. i don’t think he is a deliberate man… just someone trying to do a really difficult job….
are all of the administrations decisions correct.. prolly not, but i honestly don’t believe george w has transformed our country into nazi germany.
the framers of our country insured our freedoms.. but there are common sense to each and every freedom we have. some social responsibility to everything we do…
freedom of speech.. just does not mean shout out… in any venue when we dislike something…….. last time i was in mcdonalds….. i don’t remember standing on a table.. and screaming “this big mac tastes like shit”—- but freedom of speech insures my right.
stop being a ULTRA liberal.. and remember that there is a balance for everything including our freedoms.
Proteus
I hope you don’t mind if I respond to one or two things you have mention in your last post.
1) Your point about racial/cultural diversity is about as valid as my insanely wider than arc point about metal fans in the Bible Belt. Scotland and the rest of Britian actually have a fairly high racial mix. To borrow your point about multicultural shopping, If I walk round the corner onto my closest thourafare, I see 3 Pakistani shops, 4 Indian, 1 Turkish and two Italian. I work in an office that also employs Indians, South Africans, African Americans, Irish and so on. The city I live in, Edinburgh, has a very nice, very large Mosque (im rather fond of it, its bright and cheerful. Cities such as Birminham, London and Leicester (Ive actually been to these places, as I have relatives there) have very high populations of non-white British, whole districts are set up to accomadate ethnich needs, such as the ones in Leicester that have a special speaker system that calls the people to the mosque every morning. We in Britian are not nearly as mono-culture as you may believe.
2) Colin Powel may not be the best man for the job. I’ve heard (from a student of military history, no less..and others) that Powell was ejected from “Stormin” Norman’s command bunker for being a dangerous, unstable element who wanted to kill Iraqis who were unarmed and waving the white flag. I have yet to verify this..so I admit it may be spurious, but it does raise some questions.
3)Your point about the good things that Christian and Muslim, and Jewish people did Post-9/11 (and are still doing, I do not doubt), is conceded. However, similar things happend here in Scotland. Unfortunately, we also heard of instances where Muslims were attacked by gangs throughout America, simply for being Muslim. It happened here too. Not something to be proud of. Really, telling us that we cannot comment on your racial history is highly unfair, since your messy history is at least as bad as that of Europe, and USA has been around for a much shorter period of time. Remember the native Americans? We Europeans are not unique in having vile skeletons in our closet.
4) Im am annoyed that you ONLY got involved when you were attacked yourselves, and when you do get involved you expect everyone else to back you up. We could have done with your help LONG ago, but it was not treated as your problem until you were hurt. If I go walk through Normandy or any of those other places you mentioned, I’ll find a hell of a lot of BRitish soldiers buried there as well.
5)Macdonalds. I personally loathe these people, but not for the food…I hate the fact that their gaudy buildings are springing up all over Europe, where we don’t need them. Princes Street in Edinburgh has at least two…I hate their overly capatalist attitudes to third world countries, the Environment etc etc etc. So there.
But its a good thing you mentioned them. They are a good symbol for exactly the capitalist arrogance that so many countries are sick of. Third World countries have so many sweat shops making American products that it makes me feel physically ill. And no, I buy none of those products if I know of their swaetshop connections. In a recent copy of NEW SCientist, I saw one of the most poingant pictures I have ever seen. It was in Palistine. A mother and child dressed in rags sat huddled in a gutter below a lit up bilboard. The billboard showed an advert for and American Perfume. The dichotomy of the two things was pretty stark. Like it or not, Western society (yup, us too), but especially America, has adopted bully-boy strongarm tactics in respect to global profits and exploitation. Its one of the many reasons why so many poorer countries don’t like us. America especially.
Finally, I have a few questions. Why is Bush going ahead with the National Missile Defence System, when in 14 of the 17 tests so far, it has failed to work, and was dropped by Clinton for precisely that reason, and when a Nato report published recently states that the primary missile system used by Iraq, Iran etc could barely hit Europe, let alone America?
Why are so many people (in America as well as here) bandying about the term “daddies unfinished business) in relation to Bushs wish to attack Iraq?
Sooner or later we will all have to realise that we cannot finish a war on terror by using guns, and look for a way to ensure we never need to be afraid again. And that will not happen will be think of every muslim as an A-rab. Remember, Hitler had a similar attitude on the Jews, and look at hte horrors he visited on them…
proteus,
This is a little of target but it needs said.
Hong kong has the one of the highest accomidation costs in the world.
It also has problems with homlessness and over use of accomidation, due to limited land.
It is hardlly the fabulous living you imply, unless your a rich westerner.
In addition go down to one of hong kongs parks on a holiday and look at the hordes of femal domestic workers (Philipeno I think) who are there. they cover every square yard of the parks. Many are married, but their husbands are not in Hong Kong and there pay is not exactly the best.
As for the number of friendly fire incidents being a testiment to western military capability, I think you need to seriouslly think about that again. Its not a testiment its a testimonial.
(please forgive my poor spelling in this post I was in a rush to post this).
Ophois
Proteus:
Now that I have stopped beating my head against the wall in desperation, I must retort. I am not some green liberal socialist I am Adam Howie (yes, my real name), a person, a human, a male who thinks for himself and has chosen to walk a path of his own. I am not “Borg” I am an individual.
I do not want to see everyone poor, I am a tech-freak who happens to think it would be better if we shared our resources so that everyone has the standard of living we have. I think we should share, do you know this word, look it up. I think science would advance humanity but not by itself but also through THINKING, strange concept for you obviously and that’s the last I have to say on that matter on this forum.
I wonder if you actually listen (or read) what I have said or is it just the way I put things. As for your comment on lighting a candle I have lit a candle and I see the creature that is this darkness, humanities greed and inconsiderate nature to their fellow man.
True about the effectiveness of allied force, especially since most lost of life is caused by the American forces. (My apologies, my feelings are racing again).
My apologies for misinterpreting your words on people being shipped over to defend the US. I had no intention to deliberately misinterpret your words.
“The Americans certainly did not win WW1 on the battlefield,” true the ALLIED forces won the wars America was apart of them not the whole. I too acknowledge America involvement in the wars. PS you did only get involved in WW1 after the then USSR pulled out 6 months before the end and as for WW2, I will not mention anything else except you only got involved after a tragic attack on Pearl Harbour.
“We have another 3,000 dead Americans to bury, understand?” – Yes fully, now you know we feel with the Northern Ireland situation as a constant reminder of terrorism in our land.
“Western culture that you dispise,” oh get a grip, I am not the enemy, now person is. I do not despise western culture I think we have made some major mistakes and that we need to change to let humanity (not just the US or UK or whatever) have a chance of surviving.
” busy working while the rest of you blog away the day?” Actually I work in a social centre helping homeless people have a chance in live, which I might add means I can work about 12 hour days. Or am I being a bleeding-heart-liberal and should I just leave them to fend for themselves I mean it must ALWAYS be there fault, isn’t it?
Proteus, I respect you and I have to admit your points are valid and you have a right to them, but please respect my right be believe that there is a better way where all can stand as equals. I do believe in that we may find a common thread and that is all that is important, isn’t it? Or do we all live a clones in a factory. I leave you with a few choice quotes.
“This world is comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.” – Horace Walpole
“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.” – Winston Churchill, British statesman and writer (1874-1965)
“Our Scientific power has outrun over spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.” – Martin Luther King Jnr.
“To tyrants, indeed, and bad rulers, the progress of knowledge among the mass of mankind is a just an object of terror; it is fatal to them and their designs.” – Henry Peter Brougham, Scottish statesman and historian (1778-1868)
Proteus:
Now that I have stopped beating my head against the wall in desperation, I must retort. I am not some green liberal socialist I am Adam Howie (yes, my real name), a person, a human, a male who thinks for himself and has chosen to walk a path of his own. I am not “Borg” I am an individual.
I do not want to see everyone poor, I am a tech-freak who happens to think it would be better if we shared our resources so that everyone has the standard of living we have. I think we should share, do you know this word, look it up. I think science would advance humanity but not by itself but also through THINKING, strange concept for you obviously and that’s the last I have to say on that matter on this forum.
I wonder if you actually listen (or read) what I have said or is it just the way I put things. As for your comment on lighting a candle I have lit a candle and I see the creature that is this darkness, humanities greed and inconsiderate nature to their fellow man.
True about the effectiveness of allied force, especially since most lost of life is caused by the American forces. (My apologies, my feelings are racing again).
My apologies for misinterpreting your words on people being shipped over to defend the US. I had no intention to deliberately misinterpret your words.
“The Americans certainly did not win WW1 on the battlefield,” true the ALLIED forces won the wars America was apart of them not the whole. I too acknowledge America involvement in the wars. PS you did only get involved in WW1 after the then USSR pulled out 6 months before the end and as for WW2, I will not mention anything else except you only got involved after a tragic attack on Pearl Harbour.
“We have another 3,000 dead Americans to bury, understand?” – Yes fully, now you know we feel with the Northern Ireland situation as a constant reminder of terrorism in our land.
“Western culture that you dispise,” oh get a grip, I am not the enemy, now person is. I do not despise western culture I think we have made some major mistakes and that we need to change to let humanity (not just the US or UK or whatever) have a chance of surviving.
” busy working while the rest of you blog away the day?” Actually I work in a social centre helping homeless people have a chance in live, which I might add means I can work about 12 hour days. Or am I being a bleeding-heart-liberal and should I just leave them to fend for themselves I mean it must ALWAYS be there fault, isn’t it?
Proteus, I respect you and I have to admit your points are valid and you have a right to them, but please respect my right be believe that there is a better way where all can stand as equals. I do believe in that we may find a common thread and that is all that is important, isn’t it? Or do we all live a clones in a factory. I leave you with a few choice quotes.
“This world is comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.” – Horace Walpole
“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.” – Winston Churchill, British statesman and writer (1874-1965)
“Our Scientific power has outrun over spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.” – Martin Luther King Jnr.
“To tyrants, indeed, and bad rulers, the progress of knowledge among the mass of mankind is a just an object of terror; it is fatal to them and their designs.” – Henry Peter Brougham, Scottish statesman and historian (1778-1868)
Sorry about the double posting my browser acted up and sent it twice. Sorry.
Wil, I’m a proud Bush voter who does not in any way support doing the kind of thing described in the article you linked to. I didn’t support that kind of thing when Clinton’s people were doing it either, and politics doesn’t trump ethics in my book.
Mybe when more of your readers reach my age they’ll understand that kind of philosophy.
This comment is not specifically about the Bush debacle, but about your comment regarding the 1st Amendment.
I’ve been reading your blog for a while now, and it seems to me that you don’t seem to appreciate much about this country except for the 1st Amendment, which you use almost exclusively to denounce everything else about this country.
Correct me, please, if I’m wrong, but you DO give the impression of being anti-American. I hate to reopen an old wound, but during the time of the WTC attacks, you expressed serious reservations about WAVING THE AMERICAN FLAG. I’m not getting the impression that you care about this country or support it at all. More than once, you give the impression that you pretty much hate it.
Please note that none of this means I advocate shutting you up by force. But I am calling you on this, and I would like to hear a response.
This comment is not specifically about the Bush debacle, but about your comment regarding the 1st Amendment.
I’ve been reading your blog for a while now, and it seems to me that you don’t seem to appreciate much about this country except for the 1st Amendment, which you use almost exclusively to denounce everything else about this country.
Correct me, please, if I’m wrong, but you DO give the impression of being anti-American. I hate to reopen an old wound, but during the time of the WTC attacks, you expressed serious reservations about WAVING THE AMERICAN FLAG. I’m not getting the impression that you care about this country or support it at all. More than once, you give the impression that you pretty much hate it.
Please note that none of this means I advocate shutting you up by force. But I am calling you on this, and I would like to hear a response.
I’ll step out on a limb here and admit that I, too, became dismayed at all the flag-waving after 9/11. Not because I hate this country, but because it seemed so canned to me. I fear it has become something that has lost meaning — everyone else is waving their flag, shouldn’t I be doing it? It seemed like such a herd response! I was sad that so many people didn’t bother to do that BEFORE 9/11 (and before you label me a flag-burning hippie, I was a flag waver long before 9/11, have been since I was a small child and my WWII veteran grandfather and Vietnam veteran father instilled in me the respect for my nation and the flag that it represents). I was sad that it took a tragedy of such horrific scope to make people feel like it was necessary to show support for their nation. Of course, I can’t speak to Wil’s reason, but I just wanted to point out that a patriot could still be upset by the flag waving. I hope that makes sense.
I’ll step out on a limb here and admit that I, too, became dismayed at all the flag-waving after 9/11. Not because I hate this country, but because it seemed so canned to me. I fear it has become something that has lost meaning — everyone else is waving their flag, shouldn’t I be doing it? It seemed like such a herd response! I was sad that so many people didn’t bother to do that BEFORE 9/11 (and before you label me a flag-burning hippie, I was a flag waver long before 9/11, have been since I was a small child and my WWII veteran grandfather and Vietnam veteran father instilled in me the respect for my nation and the flag that it represents). I was sad that it took a tragedy of such horrific scope to make people feel like it was necessary to show support for their nation. Of course, I can’t speak to Wil’s reason, but I just wanted to point out that a patriot could still be upset by the flag waving. I hope that makes sense.
Dear Fluffy and Adam:
This debate grows ever more specific, sensible and sane, so I will try to briefly respond to a few of your more well-reasoned points. Sorry to mash you together, but you are both Scots, which, as we know, is located somewhere in Africa of perhaps on that big round island down at the bottom of the world somewhere.
Fluffy,
1. This whole point of local diversity was generated by my response to your comment telling me what Black Muslims experience in America, which you liked to wearing a heavy metal T-shirt in the south. Have we established that you are neither Black nor in the south, T-shirt or no? With this endless European muttering about American arrogance, can you not see what an arrogant statement that is coming from a Scotsman who is in no position to make such an evaluation? If the majority of Black Americans held your views vis a vis the War on Terror, then I’d bite my lip and keep my mouth shut. They don’t. Every black American I have talked to — and street conversations among total strangers was very common on Sept 12th — expressed the same sense of patriotism and desire to get these bastards. So I don’t know where you are getting your information, and I’m not about to deny whatever specific reports you might have read. But with regard to it being representative of America today I took and continue to take exception to it, and consider you as well qualified to make judgements on that subject as I am to discourse about Pakistani grievances on the streets of Aberdeen.
2. Regarding Colin Powell being an unstable element…I’d like to see the attribution for that comment, but even assuming it is true, the man has undeniable virtues and my experience with politicians worldwide is that any tangible virtue puts them in a catagory rarified to garner some interest on my part. For the record, I actively supported John McCain for President. who as a POW of the North Vietnamese was offered early exchange due to his father being an admiral. McCain, as ranking officer among the POWs, said he would be the last man out of there, not the first. This after having every one of his teeth broken off at the root from beatings by his ill-mannered hosts. I consider that character and I’ll be back with him in 2004. On Sept 12th McCain said to the perpetrators of the attack to “tell your people that we are coming. And may God have Mercy on their souls, because we certainly wont.” Now there’s a red-meat, American cowboy, unsophisticated, simplistic, naive and barbaric statement, God Bless him for it. Which leads me to point 4 of your last: Your complaint that we did not get earlier involved before the terrorists struck here. Did we not have George Mitchell finally lead to some kind of breakthrough in Northern Ireland? Much more to the point, prior to 9/11 Americans and American interests had been much more damaged, in terms of lives lost, than the rest of Europe combined — unless I am unaware of some large-scale pre 9/11 terrorist attacks on Europe that equal the bombing of the marine barracks in Lebanon (240 American’s killed) the bombings of the US embassies in 1998 (hundreds of local employees killed), The USS Cole (17), the bombing of the American Barracks in Saudi Arabia (not sure, but scores dead), etc.
There are two points to be made here. First, you express resentment that the US didn’t do more to protect you by responding to terrorist threats. That attitude essentially transfers your national safety to that of an overseas ally. Because the fact remains that Al Qaeda had operatives aboard British jetliners ready to crash them into Parliament and Big Ben, but all flights were grounded after the reports from New York came in.
Here’s where I’m going with this: What if we had foiled the attacks in the US but those in the UK had succeeded, and it had been Big Ben and Trafalgar square on fire, as they also intended? What would the UK have been able to do alone? I say this not in a “you owe us” way, but merely as a realistic question, given that the UK was targeted that same day.
It seems to me — correct me if I am wrong — that you would have liked some help cleaning these people up prior to getting our noses bloody. Me personally, I think that would have been wonderful. Did you ask for military assistance? I don’t recall hearing about it. And what does that ultimately say about a country, that is unwilling to pay for an adequate military to deal with such attacks, looks to a powerful ally who IS willing to bear the blood and money burden, and then criticizes them for taking the military action needed in self-defence that you condemn us for not taking for a foreign ally. Remember that I joined this fray in response to your criticism of American military power. Now it seems to me that you are lamenting that we haven’t used this power to help our friends earlier. So which is it? And furthermore, if you want help, ask for it. If you can show me where the UK was denied military assistance by the US after direct request, then I WILL have to have some words with my elected representatives.
This is all rendered moot, of course, by the scale of the 9/11 attacks. We ARE going to take whatever action we deem necessary to prevent this in the future. If you want to argue about this over the web, that’s fine, but it is the perception of many Americans that this becoming all that Europeans are capable of: endless discussion and gnashing of teeth while the house is on fire. I, for one, am not the kind of man who will hold a man’s coat while he molests my child. Even if he had a bad childhood. I will stop that bastard anyway I know how. And I have always admired the Scots as being tough-minded enough to understand this. So imagine my disappointment.
3. You point out that Scotland and the UK have shown great compassion to Muslims during these times. I am heartily glad to hear it. Recall that YOU did not stumble on to one of MY postings telling the world how horrible life is for Pakistanis in Glasgow. You slandered my family, man. What self-respecting person can sit still for that?
McDonald’s corporate arrogance. Yes, the mindless Corporate American Arrogance that says that perhaps someone might want an affordable hamburger. Please forward your photographic evidence of US Marines on the streets of the Third World, forcing starving children into McDonalds at gunpoint and stripping them of their meager sheckels. Until such time I will assume that people eat there because they choose to. You may want to take away that choice. Okay. Who’s the fascist now? (Would you hate them as much of they were, say, O’Donald’s? Donaldson’s? Donaldovitch’s? I doubt it, Scottie)
Sweatshops and capitalist exploitation: okay, people work for a dollar a day making Nikes. I wouldn’t be stupid enoigh to argue that. And a dollar a day is pretty slim pickin’s if you’re living in Southern California. But what is a dollar a day there? And why are there so many people scrambling for those jobs? And if they take those jobs and give them to $20 dollar an hour Scottish workers, then those people will be making 0 dollars a day.
Yes this is cold-blooded. But the reason I am a conservative is because I came to realize that wishing something was a certain way DID NOT MAKE IT SO, no matter how hard or often I tried.
Nike makes sport shoes. That’s what they do. So they can make them in Guatemale for 3 dollars a day or Germany for $30 dollars an hour. Okay, I’m thinking they’ll go with Guatemala. Now tell me how this could be different. Could Nike willingly pay $30 an hour to the Guatemalans? I suppose they could. Was Nike incorporated as a third world aid project? No. Nike was incorporated TO SELL SHOES. Okay? That’s what Nike does.
A corporation is a financial tool. Like pliers and coffeemakers, it is designed for a specific purpose.
Now sewing shoes is a rotten job. It is a low-skill, low-paying job. But it beats picking through garbage piles, which is what these klpetocratic third world governments have reduced their people to. Now pay attention class, cause I’m only going to say this once and there will be a test afterwards: making shoes in sweatshops was the standard of US industry just before the turn of the century. Britain’s too. In fact, as with much of the 19th century, Britain led the way in sweatshops: Behold Charles Dickens.
Today, the poorest societies in the world have living standards far above those of the richest European and American societies in the mid 1800’s. You don’t have to take my word for this…just do a little reasearch in infant mortality, life expectancy, etc. Do they lag behind the West? Undoubtedly. But look at what capitalism has done to, say, the population of mainland China. I did a documentary on them in 1983 and just finished a 13 parter on China this year. In half a generation they have gone from Mao jackets and poking sticks in the ground to cell phones and world travel. There has simply never been so many people raised from abject poverty in such a short time. Notice I did not claim these were innately superior Americans. These were hard-working people who kicking and screaming tore a few rights and freedoms from one of the worst government in the world, who realized that if they didn’t allow their population (I almost wrote “citizens”…maybe some day soon) to keep some of their money then they would get further and further behind.
Poverty is not a result of national borders, genetic types, earthly resources or luck. It is a result of policies and laws that allow people to harness their desire for a better life for themselves and their families.
Yes, the rich are richer. But the poor are richer, too. You may scream and gag, but look at the lives of the poor today compared with fifty or a hundred years ago, and on balance you will see huge increases in life expectancy, reductions in infant mortality and improvement in the quality of life. This is not for a moment to say that there is not appalling poverty and misery out there. But there are many examples of societies that function well in the world. Those that do best for their people have firm property laws and individual freedoms. Theory and wishful economic models are not a substitute for these core conservative values. We can plainly see what works and what does not.
Finally, Fluffy, did you read the article by Margaret Thatcher recently? She fully supports the National Missile Defense plan. Know why? because 1. If it works we Brits get a free umbrella: ditto Russia, Germany, japan, etc. Vote is still out on France. 2. given the consequences of a rougue nuclear missile strike, any chance to shoot down such a thing is better than no chance at all. 4 out of 17 hits is better than 0 out of 17, for starters, and we are, I think, 3 for 3 for the most recent tests. This is not a deployyable technology, but it will be. Spare us please the withdrawing from the ABM nonsense. There was a legal provion for withdrawing, which we have followed. More importantly, that treaty was signed with the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union no longer exists. I no longer consider Britain obligated to the Treaty of Versailles, so that makes us even.
Which leads to your great dismay at the US hypocrisy in wanting to keep weapons of mass destruction from the hands of fundamentalist lunatics and tin-pot psychopathic narcisstic Presidents-for-life. I can sum up my repose simply: We’ve had nuclear weapons for half a century and used them once, to end a war that would have cost another 1 million US and 7-12 million Japanese lives to end conventionally (and yes, I’d LOVE to get into that if you like) We also have had modern jetliners for forty years and never crashed them intentionally into the Kaaba, either. Judge for yourself relative levels of responsibility and restraint.
Hi Adam. I’d love to get a grip. What part of your earlier “those that know me know I hate western culture” did I misconstrue as you hating western culture?
You seem a decent fellow. Even Fluffys’ offer for me to come over there so he could kick my ass brought him up a peg in my eyes.
So let me ask you both something. If you were cruising the web, listening to Americans tell you how horrible your race relations are and condeming you for wanting to weed out the murderers of your countrymen as “stupid, arrogant, Scottish unilaterism,” what would you do? How many close friends did you have under the rubble? I had two. Fact is, we are not out there flaming Scotland because Scotland has been a great friend to the United States. So what’s your excuse, lads?
Hi Avidreader. You seem like a good man too. Let me assure you that as far as I could see, nothing about the flag waving was canned at all. As a matter of fact, I judge it to be the most spontaneous thing I have ever seen. The second I saw one on someones car on Sept 12th I had to have one. I wanted to world to know that the driver of my car loved and was willing to defend this country.
Now while I certainly can’t fault you for not feeling the same, I do have to wonder why it ‘troubles you.” Hey, I hate the goddam Lakers, but when I see the Laker flags out I just smile at someone who obviously is very proud of something that I just don’t get. I don’t go critize them for it, and I certainly don’t accuse them of trying to make me feel less Lakriotic. I don’t react with concern at how this might be stifling the freedom of New Jersey Nets fans to have a say. I just admire their enthusiasm and loyalty. And when I see an American flying a US flag I throw in love and pride and respect and a sense of standing shoulder to shoulder with that man or woman, upon whatever rampart we may be called to.
Of course, that’s just me.
Proteus:
I have checked my posts and the part you are taking out of context (a wonderful propaganda tool) was in the context of, if you have been paying any attention, is the parts I think we can all agree on are bad, greed, hate, crimes etc. Read and understand before you comment. My opinion on violence is that it should always be a last resort and if violence is the only way to bring someone up in your estimation then I weep for your decedents.
Though to try and regain some civility to this, thanks for the compliment on being decent fellow, I do try and be one. I’ll tell you this though, I think you need to have an honest word with your heart (out with the 9-11 issue) can you really justify the example you give above when taking with Fluffy about Nike. Those people don’t have a choice, yes because of the governments but also because our governments have put these countries into inescapable debt which the foreign governments CANNOT right off so have to employ their people at crappy wages. Oh yes and the US national debt, the only reason you guys aren’t a third world country is because of this debt with which your government (and mine as well) strangle these countries.
I have to say that I cannot possibly say what I would feel if 9-11 had happened in the UK but my beliefs do spur me on to a different response, yes judgement and punishment for those who organised and committed these crimes (lest we forget Lockerbie). But also we should look at peace (any references to tree-hugging hippy stuff and I’ll belt you – metaphoricaly – with that tree) instead of always killing.
Anyway I can see my reasoning cannot make any sense to a man who is bent on detroying and killing anything which stands in there way (if thsi si not the case then I must be getting the wrong end of your posts). See you on the flip side. I look forward to seeing Fluffy’s reply to your little essay.
Proteus.
I am a little amazed, to be frank. First you start by exlaiming on how decent the debate had become, and then you continue with intelligent, reasoned arguments.
And then you spoil them. I’ll get to your arguments in a mo..because thats the point of debate…but first
1)”I have always admired the Scots as being tough-minded enough to understand this, imagine my disapointment”. I may be wrong, but it looks like you are insulting my intelligence..or my resolve…either way I must say that my brain is working very well (hey I have a degree, must be ticking over okay) and my resolve is steel. The offer of kicking your ass for calling me a “gutless, dole-sponging European turd” should have been testiment to that.
2)Slander.1.Saying of something false and damaging, usually intentionally 2an intentionally false and malicious statement that is damaging to reputation…..You accuse me of slandering your family. I state now that, as I do not know your family nor you (apart from this discussion), then I could not and would not attempt to, by intent, slander your family. At no point did I intentionally insult your family personally. If by any of my statements you took offence and took them to mean they were personal malicious attacks, then I apologize, but I did not slander you. What would be the point? I am not that type of person. My point (attempted at any rate) about the Black situation in America is based on the reams and reams of newspaper articles, tv footage and radio coverage which all seem to suggest very strongly that Black people are often badly treated in America. If this is completely wrong and such things never happen then what I wrote was totally inaccurate. Is it?
3) I thought we had gotten beyond the point of hurling insults at one another?
Finally, onto your points.
1) I am trying to find corroborative evidence of that stuff about Powell…as I said, until such evidence is found it is at least suspect.
2)MY resentment about Americas…shall we say belated entry into the Worlds terror problems is more to do with the American expectation that “you can relax now, Europe…Uncle Sam is here to help, its okay, we’ve stopped funding people like the IRA and we’re here to stop all the killing.” Fine. I’m really glad you finally turned up…but why take so long? If you really care so much about terror, and world peace, its shouldnt Have taken somehting like 9/11 to get you involved. (im probably still not getting this across very well…apologies).
3)Ever think that we didn’t ask for Military assistance because we felt that a non-military solution was the only way we could truly end it? Even now, British Military spokesmen are putting forward the idea (which I have been championaing) that in the end we will need to solve the problems and causes of terrorism…not blow them up. Also, I’m pretty sure that it was Mo Mowlem, Secretary of State for Ireland (at the time) who actually laid the origional framework for the Irish Peace process. Im still not convinced that military force is the way to solve the problem.
4) Soldiers may not be forcing people to eat Macdonalds alledged hamburgers, but think of it like this. Macdonalds opens an outlet opposite a family Burger Bar. The Macdonalds food is cheaper, because the family bar has not got the corporate power behind it. The family’s burgers are good, but not uniform, some are better or worse than others. They quickly go out of business, and MAcdonalds has cornered the market, now there is no-where else for people to go if they want a burger. This process is described again and again by Bill Bryson, in his books “The Lost Continent” and “Notes from a Big Country”. you see my point. Vicious capitalism in action. I dont want to take away choice, Macdonalds are doing it for me. (Also see NO LOGO, CAPTIVE STATE , DEVILS ADVOCATE and THE GREAT FOOD GAMBLE). Oh, and I dont care what they are called. The idea that I may find their name offensive because of my nationality borders on racial insult…I hope thats not how it was intended.
5) Nice point about MAggie Tatcher. A nearly senile ex-Prime Minister who gets more Right Wing every day, who has been told not to do any more public speeches for her health, who continues to systematicaly destroy the credibility of the Tory party (example:- Ian Duncan Smith puts forward a new, radical idea on how to solve poverty problems in Glasgow. Its hailed as a great step forward. Then Maggie opens her gob and screws everything up). This is a woman who ravaged our industries and uses Scotland as a test bed for her unpopluar ideas. Suffice to say that her opinion carries no water for me.
Also, Britian and Europe will not be getting a free umbrella. If this system is to work, it requires early warning stations in Britian and Europe. Which we are expected to pay for. (at least we were last time I checked. I admit this may have changed). And the whole shebang is not really likely to affect terrorism one jot. Al Quaeda won’t be launching missiles at you. Theyll get the nuke in in a suitcase.
6) On Hiroshima and Nagisaki. How many innocent men,women and children (civilians) died in those blasts? Was it not revealed recently that the Japanese Emperor had already issued a statement of surrender, and that the bombs were dropped as a signal to Russia not to get too cocky?
Lastly, heres a list of incidents (that I remenber of the top if my head) of terrorism against Britian.
Lockerbie (270 dead)
Omah (28)
Eniskillen (11)
Canary Warf