So I do this ask me thing on the tumblr thing, and this came up yesterday:
methodoflogicalmadness asked:
Which format of D&D would you recommend for a new playgroup? I have previous experience with Pathfinder, but we are considering jumping into 5th ed. From what I’ve gathered, 5th ed. streamlines many features with its advantage/disadvantage system, but I was wondering if there are many flaws in the mechanics. I would hate to learn 5.0 only to learn that the game is dysfunctional or beyond repair. Do you have any advice toward which version is better?
I answered:
I love 5e, and I think it’s a great place to start the hobby. At the moment, there are two main forks of the RPG experience (someone who works in the industry may disagree, or may be able to expound on this): the minis-on-the-map game, and the storytelling game. D&D 3.5, 4E, True 20, and Pathfinder are heavily into the minis-on-the-map thing. That’s fine, if that’s what you want to do, but if I’m going to do minis-on-the-map, I’ll just play Warhammer. The storytelling games are the focus in Savage Worlds (though it also supports minis-on-the-map), FATE Core, Fiasco, Primetime Adventures, the AGE system, and D&D 5E (at the moment. I’m sure it’ll go minis sooner than later).
But, look, the important thing is that you play, not what you play. Don’t be afraid to try out some different systems (they all have free quickstart rules online) and discard the ones you don’t like. And, once you have some experience in the hobby, don’t be afraid to take something from one system and drag it into another system. Don’t be afraid to modify stuff from one setting so that it will work in a different one, because the whole point of playing is to explore worlds that exist because the DM/GM and players all agree to make them.
I hope this helps. Have fun!
I remember how intimidated I was when I was learning how to play RPGs, and that was way back in the 80s when there were only a few to pick from. Now, there are hundreds. I’m sort of making it part of my mission in life to help get more people playing more games, and part of that is taking the fear and intimidation out of the hobby as much as I can.
This is really interesting, and I could see the pros and cons of writing a book about it. On one hand it would definitely help newcomers into the hobby and maybe be less afraid of jumping into the RPG community. However the Idea that there are so many overwhelming choices and systems for newcomers that someone felt the need to make a book about it, is also a bit intimidating haha! Regardless if you write it I would buy it, even though I have been gaming for about 5 years It would be cool to get your thoughts on the hobby in detail.
I would love that. I want to learn, but do feel intimidated. A book like that sounds really helpful (as was your answer to the ask).
I always wanted to play DnD but had no friends anywhere near that idea. Finally at 40 something I finally started with 5E Expeditions on wednesday nights and I love it and am mad I didnt start earlier 😛
Would you ever consider making a few Video tutorials outlining the game? It might help spread some interest and awareness of it.
That’s a great idea! Videos would be easy to get a hold of via youtube and would provide all of the necessary info.
This is a great idea – I would certainly be interested in such a book. I started to get into D&D (back in the 3.0 & 3.5 era) and what I liked LEAST was all the paperwork. Help me find a system that minimizes that and maximizes the fun, and I’m there!
I would say that D&D 5e is still a very mechanics first game. The only way for you to actually do something is to have a skill to roll and roll for it first and then narrate what happens as a result.
A game like Apocalypse world and other “Powered by the Apocalypse” games such as Dungeon World are of the style tell-what-you-want-to-do-and-the-GM-decides-what-how-and-if-you-need-to-roll-to-do-that. I prefer that style.
Great idea! As a suggestion, ask some celebrity friends to step forward and share their gaming experiences. There are plenty (Vin Diesel, Nathan Fillion just to name a couple). Would definitely help to promote the hobby and maybe help some newcomers with overcoming the intimidation factor.
Anyway, whatever you decide to write I’ll be buying. Looking forward to it 🙂
I would be interested in reading that especially after your experience putting the Titansgrave world together for the rpg show.
Very good points, Wil. Of course, it also depends upon what sort of genre they want to play, but like you said, there are hundreds of games out now.
When I started, it was like “Want to play fantasy? Here’s D&D!” “Want to play science fiction? Here’s D&D!” “Want to play horror? Here’s D&D!”, etc, etc. Of course, we did adapt D&D for other genres, until things like Traveller and CoC came along.
And yes, you should write a book or maybe do some short videos.
I know it probably wouldn’t pay for itself, but I’d love some quick 10-minute intro videos on the different systems that are out there. You’re very good at explaining game mechanics, and with come cool editing, they could really be fun to watch and get people excited about systems we may not have heard about.
yeah,make some vids
I know I would be very intrigued to read your thoughts on the subject of tabletop RPGs, especially if you interwove the subject matter matter with your narratives. I imagine you could use the creation of the RPG Show as a cool backdrop for it. That process alone seems like it would be fascinating. And hey if you collaborate it with Green Ronin, it should be a hoot to read.
Definitely a great idea. A generic advice book, written with the usual wit and accessible style would be a great starting point to newbies. I’d also second the idea of short videos of advice for GMs and new players.
As a game designer, I’ve always been intrigued by the accessibility problem of RPGs, trying to make them appealing and less daunting for the new player (something I tried to do with Doctor Who: Adventures in Time and Space). A fairly cheap and conversational guide would be brilliant to provide help for all aspects of GMing and gaming.
That sounds like it could be interesting, but I have to admit to being a little disappointed since when I first read this post’s title I thought you meant a fiction book where playing an RPG was part of the plot. Silly me 🙂 Other than Ready Player One, most of the stories I’ve seen that effectively use RPG or online communities have been Chinese novels, so I was looking forward to seeing another effort in that vein.
The biggest problem with RPGs is lousy mechanics that slow down the storytelling and interaction with role players. If I was suggesting a direction for a book it would be a better guide to being a Dungeon/Game Master. In my experience this is what always made the difference. I stopped playing after D&D advanced 2nd edition because I felt after that and even with it itself just the rules tended to pile up more and more. Rules and tables that do nothing but slow down the game play and confuse the heck out of the players. In the end I preferred the 2nd edition the best but only because back then most players had few options and were familiar with the rules it was also when I had the most fun as a player and a DM as well.
All the extra stuff like advanced tactics the further dividing up of attribute stats and so on only encumbered the rules and furthered the game from the role playing aspect. The acting reacting fun became sandwiched between explaining game mechanics, die rolls and resolutions.
People have to talk out of character so much now days that the origins of the game have become lost. The slowing down of the fighting is unforgiveable more and more with the die rolls to decide exactly where somebody was struck by the enemy for 2 hit points of damage is dumb…I used to just make that crap up as I went. It felt more realistic and fun then what the die rolls turned up anyway. Also, all the results that added more things for players and DM to monitor was like chains around the ankles…the fun was gone for me and it never returned.
I hope you can help those still interested because it can be very fun and should be again.
Dooo eeeet!
An introduction to RPGs of the sort you outlined would be excellent. Good advice books for players and GMs are already available, but I haven’t found a well-written, inviting book of introduction to RPGs that covers various game and play styles in a nonjudgmental way. Your ability to pull in an audience would really help get such a work in the hands of people who are interested but intimidated by tabletop RPGs.
One thing I’m always looking for is well-produced videos designed to show particular games in a way that is approachable to newcomers. As others have pointed out, the economics of such an endeavor might not work, but a series of brief intro videos for a variety of games, each broadly representative of a particular approach (ex: one of the Apocalypse-powered games, a Fate-powered game, etc.), would be fantastic.
That would be wonderful! I really liked your reply when I came across it on tumblr, and it’s rare to find a thoughtful approach to which system to play. Unfortunately my local gaming scene tends to complain about a particular system without going into why they don’t like it, or even acknowledging any of it’s good points.
I want you on Instagram. That is private and i only add movie stars and actors now. Only famous people like u. 🙂
I’d like this very much, please.
You should definitely try out Apocalypse World if you haven’t already. It’s the best RPG I’ve played. Very, very narrative driven, and the mechanics do nothing but back up said narrative. It’s definitely one people should start the medium with!
Please write this book. It may be too much for your scope but learning how to play for adults and incorporating family/children
I frequently hop between both styles of play and I enjoy them both even though they play quite differently. As Will states, the most important thing is to get in and play some. Have fun and become a part of the hobby. Most gamers I know are very welcoming of new players and actively look to bring people into the hobby.
Good points…one of the great things about role playing games is that they teach you how to collaborate. The first RPG group I joined was very helpful in explaining the rules, which easily could have been overwhelming for a newbie.
I haven’t bought a book about roleplaying since Gary Gygax put out Role-Playing Mastery back in 1672. Okay, maybe it wasn’t that long ago, but i do think RPGs have evolved quite a lot since then, so it feels like a different era. Anyway, the Gygax book had some reasonable insights, but it bored me to tears after a while. As monumental as his contributions to the games I love have been, he wasn’t the most captivating writer.
So it would be really cool if someone who IS a good writer, and has a lot of experience introducing tabletop games to a wide community of enthusiasts and newcomers alike, took on the challenge of writing a guide to gaming. Particularly if the emphasis is not on mastery, but on creativity, accessibility, and having fun. I’d buy that book. I’ve been running games since there was only one flavor of D&D, and making up my own rules and worlds for decades, but I love to learn about all the systems that are out today. There’s always something cool to be found in any game book you pick up.
It sounds like you’ve sampled a wide variety of games, which is a wealth of experience to draw upon if you’re sharing insights about what works for you, and what may work for different tastes in RPGs. More importantly, your writing is entertaining and likely to appeal to an audience looking for a good introduction to games. I’d love to have a good book on the subject to recommend to anyone who might be interested but unsure of where or how to begin.
Write a thing! I’m sure we’ll all be as giddy as a Saurian with a new blaster mod when we finally get to crack open the pages.
It doesn’t matter what games are out there. What matters is what games you local pool of players are willing to play. You could find an RPG that speaks to your soul. Buying does you no good is no one else is interested in playing. 3.5/Pathfinder vs 5e is another non-starter. What game is the group you want to join already playing? Odds are, it doesn’t matter what game you play “first”. If you have fun, keep playing that game. If you think the group is between you and having fun, find a new group. If you think the game is between you and having fun, find a new game.
Selecting an RPG for a first timer is a crap shoot. You don’t know what you like until you play. Even Wil’s comments above about story versus minis is meaningless, you don’t what you like more until you encounter both and find out which gives you more fun.
Oh, and remember, the tactical environment of 3.x/pathfinder is “old school” when one considers the original D&D was born out of Chainmail a tactical skirmish game.
It does matter what games are out there if you’re not joining an existing group but rather setting one up, like the questioner was and like I currently am. We have to make a choice, and we don’t know much about the different systems so looked to see what more experienced people suggested.
Saying that the comments about tactical miniatures versus story focused games is “meaningless” is also wrong. From what little d&d I have watched (mainly the acquisitions Inc videos and podcasts), I know that the more miniature – focused storyline have bored the shit out of me while the ones focused on creative storytelling were compelling.
Overall I’m not sure why you’re quite so negative about the idea of suggesting a game when asked.
I didn’t say I was against suggesting a game. But in my experience, it is easier to learn to play by joining an existing group than it is to try to create a group from scratch with no one having played before.
And just because moving minis around doesn’t interest you, doesn’t mean it is boring for everyone. D&D would not exist if the original creators weren’t spending their weekends moving minis around on a grid.
Our current live game is doing Numenera right now. You might want to look into it for a game system that is conducive to storytelling.
Please write this book. Our gaming night friends would love to try an rpg but it is very intimidating. Where to start?
Please, please do! I’m learning how to play pathfinder right now. To quote Jacqueline Carey: “All Knowledge Is Worth Having.”
I don’t know why I capitalized every word.
Not sure where else to leave this, but on the mobile version of the blog website the link to your homepage is completely white, at least on my chrome. I can click the banner where the link is, but it took a while to find it.
Yes, please. I am the last surviving member of my family interested in board games. Ease me into the RPG world and I can rejoin my clan in fun game nights. No pressure, really 🙂
Even though I’ve been playing RPGs (storyteller and minis-on-the-map) since 1978, I would still purchase and read this book. 🙂
Watching Tabletop, Acquisitions Inc, G&S things are what made me get back into DMing. If you can translate the demeanor and methods you use to describe and simplify things as you do in Tabletop in book form, I think this would be a huge success for you – if not monetarily then at least in the satisfaction in helping the timid to break into the gaming format that has spawned so much enjoyment for so many.
If you write it, I will buy it.
Looking forward to it.
BTW, I’d suggest reading “Play Dirty 1 & 2” by John Wick. Chock full of great advise on running RPGs.
I’ve been running RPGs for 30 years and still learned more techniques from these books.
just pluggin my rpg love, Shadowrun… near future techno-magical world. Fun fun fun
This is a neat idea, and I hope you pursue it. I wonder if it would be of interest to a publisher who already runs a “How To…” series. I can see why your outlook might not mix well with titles like “Complete Idiot’s Guide to…”, but I wonder if there’s a hobbyist series out there that’s along the lines of the “Very Short Introduction” series about big ideas (or even the 33 1/3 series about albums).
Wow. I’m feeling old. You young whippersnappers don’t know what it was like in the pre-AD&D days. Dice you roll were a new addition to the game when I started. Does anyone remember the cardboard squares in a bag instead of dice? [I stopped in the early 80s – due to wanting to pass college courses and didn’t get back into it. I occasionally do some tabletop gaming.]
One thing to remember is the social element. It doesn’t matter what form you play or how strictly you follow (or don’t) follow the rules – having fun in the most important thing. I my groups, a quarter of the time was spent with bad jokes, insults, and silliness.
Our DMs took a lot of liberties with the rules to keep things moving and interesting. They usually gave players lots of opportunities to escape without dying and/or allowing a way to get resurrected. In some campaigns we played two characters each – that made for a stronger party and if we lost a character, the player still had the other character at a level with most of the party.
… In them days we was glad to have a +1 sword and an ordinary helm ….
… You had a sword?!?! We had to make due with a big stick…
…
….And you try and tell the young people of today that ….. they won’t believe you.
Brilliant idea! Such a book would be great, I’m just getting my 10-years old nephew into RPGs. I have played myself when I was a teen, but this was in the early 90s, it would be helpful to have something for orientation – and also something I can give to my nephew to read.
Will.. majorspoilers.com has a weekly audio podcast called critical hit where they currently are doing a Fate advanced game in a setting called Modern City, and in a couple of months will be resuming their exploration of D&D 5e. They did over a 150 podcast episodes previously with 4e. I find it very enjoyable on the car ride home from work to hear these guys rolling a d20 to hit a spider monster. I also have learned quite a bit about the mechanics of various RPG systems they have played which is helpful as a gm and player of these games myself.
I am not connected with them at all, I’m just a guy ya know, I have no reason to plug them other then out some nerd wish fulfillment of mine to see you perhaps be a guest on an episode of theirs or something.. although admittedly you and Mathew might duke it out for who is the bigger ham when it comes to cultural references made out of character during game play… If it helps they have plugged tabletop a few times..
As an indie rpg designer I’d love to read what you had to say.
I am one of those folks who doesn’t know how to play RPGs and is a little intimidated by them. They seem like so much work/that they require so much thinking and effort that they don’t seem fun. I know they are fun for many people, but when I’ve tried to play them (just a little) on my own with a few interested but also completely n00b friends, I simply get overwhelmed. So do they. So the game goes on a shelf forever.
I enjoy “regular” board games a lot, but I’d like to expand to RPGs, so any help for a clueless one would likely be appreciated.
Add to me to the list of those that would love an RPG book from you (or videos, or essays, or whatever format you choose). I’m an experienced gamer, but there are so many systems out there that it would be wonderful to get a thoughtful overview perspective on them.
I will also note to those looking for systems that the group can make an even larger impact on the gaming experience than the system itself. I prefer storytelling to anything else, but the games I’ve played with the richest and most creative story lines have actually been using the D&D 4E system, just because of the group dynamics involved. Luckily, that’s something that can be brought to (and learned/ practiced/ improved on within) any system. Of course I’m eagerly following this thread looking for suggestions on systems, too (!), but for me, knowing that systems can be flexible for your own preferences takes some of the pressure off choosing a “wrong” system.
Speaking of… If you do write a book, Wil, any chance you could discuss roleplaying more broadly (whether as DM or as a player at the table), regardless of system? You’ve obviously put so much thought into how to make an awesome campaign/game, and it’s always fun to read about ways to up my own game, so to speak!
Thanks for everything you do.
Cool. This would be a fun read.
It’s a great idea! I’ve been running campaigns for my kids (and their friends) for 30 years, and they’re now doing the same. We’re very much about the story (and family and friends), but we also take the game mechanics very seriously.
If you’d like any help to get this rolling, we’d be very happy to lend a hand.
I’ve been playing RPGs since 1981, when a friend’s older brother let us photocopy his Gamma World rulebook and me and several of my other friends who didn’t really understand the rules (we were 7-8 years old) started playing, and I’ve been hooked ever since. I’ve played/ran dozens of game systems with a number of groups, and I’ll read the book if you write it.
And my advice for everyone who commented above that they would like to learn roleplaying but are intimidated/don’t know where to start:
If you can find an existing group to join (or an experienced player or two to join your newly forming group), it helps immensely. Someone already familiar with the setting and rules, who can explain things without needing to look them up in the books (or worse, try to figure them out while reading from the book to answer the question) makes it much easier for new players to pick things up and helps to keep things moving.
If involving an experienced player isn’t feasible, talk with your group and pick a game that appeals to you. Once you’ve decided on a game (and obtained rules for it), it might be a good idea to have your first game session just be the group discussing the setting/rules, helping each other figure out the system, and making characters. Maybe run a few mock-combat rounds or skill checks. And if you’re the one running the game (the GM/DM/Referee/GOD/Storyteller/etc.) and you’ve got no RPG experience, using pre-made adventures (they exist for most systems I’ve played) to start with can really help until you get a feel for the system and how to run it.
There are three main forks, which I might exemplify with Labyrinth Lord (or classic D&D itself), Fiasco, and D&D4e. There’s some overlap, but they are different enough that we really should be more specific than simply “RPG”.
Yes, please do write it. And then go on a book tour. And come to Columbus OH so I can meet you 🙂