We also completely screwed up the rules. For I think the 10th time this season.
I am furious, I am embarrassed, and I need to put there here so I can just refer to it when this almost certainly happens again this season:
We had a producer whose primary job was to make sure we knew the rules to the games, and played correctly. I trusted this producer to be on top of these things, and I trusted this producer to ensure that we played the games properly.
For the first two seasons, this producer did a fantastic job. A couple mistakes got through, but it wasn’t a big deal. Everyone makes a mistake now and then, and the show has always been more about the fun of playing the games than anything else. But something happened in the third season. I don’t know if this producer was careless, overwhelmed, didn’t care as deeply as previous seasons, or just didn’t do the same amount of preparation that was done for the first two seasons. I don’t know why this producer failed to do the most important part of the job so many times this season, but I’m pretty fucking pissed off that the person I trusted to make sure we played the games correctly let me down. I trusted this producer so completely, I spent my time and my energy on other aspects of production, instead of diligently reviewing the rules before every game like I’d done the first two seasons. I feel really, really awful about this. I feel embarrassed by this.
We have a very ambitious production schedule. It’s grueling for all of us, but this season wasn’t any different than the previous two seasons. There is just no excuse for something so fundamental to the show to have been so completely screwed up almost half of the time this season. My trust and reliance was misplaced, I guess, and for that I am embarrassed, I am angry, and I am sorry.
Tabletop is more than just a show where we play games. Tabletop is where millions of people from all over the world go to see how games are played, and to discover new games. We have a responsibility to our audience, and we have let a lot of you down. This is even more infuriating to me this season, because this season was literally made possible by people reaching into their own pockets and trusting us with their money. We had a responsibility to take good care of that, and we didn’t.
Ultimately, I am the host and the face and the identity of Tabletop, so ultimately this falls on me. I take responsibility for these mistakes. I am the executive producer and creator, and it’s my responsibility to ensure that everyone is doing their job. It’s my responsibility to deliver the best show I can, and too many times this season I failed to do that.
To the developers whose games we’ve messed up: I am profoundly sorry. I sincerely hope that your sales aren’t hurt by our mistakes, and I sincerely hope you will accept my apologies.
If we do another season of Tabletop, I will ensure that this never happens again. If we do another season of Tabletop, I’m going to very carefully vet a couple of experts and producers to take on the responsibility of ensuring we’re playing games correctly, and I’ll spend even more of my own time getting up to speed on the rules for each game.
So all of that said, please know that Kingdom Builder is a really great game. We had a lot of fun when we played it, even though we completely butchered the rules.
Ugh. That sucks. Nothing to do now but own it (you did), and move on.
We all make mistakes. Don’t be to hard on yourself.
Seriously, don’t give it a second thought. It isn’t a huge deal and has in no way distracted me from enjoying the show. Post production seems to catch the error and makes it known.
Thanks for owning it and learning from it. It’s not – to me – a big deal. We have a saying in our gaming group “Oh no! We got a rule wrong? That NEVER happens!” (said with much sarcasm of course).
Dont worry about it, Mistakes do happen and I’m sure if you have a chat with him, you’ll find the reason, maybe he’s going through a rough patch or is dealing with some heavy issues and thought he could handle this. You showed the game, you guys had fun and anyone encouraged to pick this up will no doubt read the rules and see what happened
I volunteer to replace the producer.
As Tribute?
Mistakes happen and we get to see where the most common mistakes are likely to be.
Like the previous posters have said, it is not a huge deal and certainly won’t affect how I watch and enjoy the show. Because of Tabletop, my boyfriend and I have really gotten into games. You’re doing great work.
Wil, We love the games, and despite some of the comments on youtube, we dont REALLY care much about the rules being messed up. You show us new games and we can always read and find out what rules are messed up. You’ve introduced us to new games, and i seriously hope you do a new season of tabletop. if not for tabletop, i wouldnt have found one of my favorite games (Dread). (granted, it didnt really have “rules”).
I’m one of the backers and I asbsolutely thing its been completely worth it.
In other words, dont be so hard on yourself. You put out a great product.
Mistakes are unfortunate, but without them you don’t appreciate it as much when you do it well!
Could you invite publishers to send an observer? They might even be happy to do it on their own dime due to the “TableTop effect” sales bump, and it also creates an opportunity for bonus content interviews.
The best part of all games is the fun we have playing them. While all of us have made new rules for even the best of games – the admiration from the community and fans of Tabletop will not remember or care about your indiscretion as long as you and your friends had fun playing a truly good game!
I understand the frustration, but it certainly hasn’t taken anything away from the show (from a viewers perspective). If anything, this shows that you can still really enjoy the hobby and games while making rule mistakes during the learning process. Too often we get bogged down in rule minutia during our first few plays that it takes away from the enjoyment.
You’re all still raising awareness of the hobby in such an awesome and positive way that you’ve earned a few missteps here and there.
Keep it up!
Just in case you decide to go that way, I’m the woman for the job. Ridiculously picky about sticking to the rules, to the point of pissing people off because I don’t let things slip. And I need a job. Love you show.
I don’t know if you’re aware but said producer also used the Tabletop name pretty heavily when promoting his kickstarter and has bitterly disappointed his backers there. Many were talking about Tabletop’s next crowdfunding as a public forum with which to take out their frustrations.
Apart from that please know that the episode was incredibly enjoyable and that I wasn’t bothered by the rules mishaps. I don’t think they heavily favored one player.
As a thought… There are some excellent video/podcast sources geared at teaching these games and perhaps in cases where the rules weren’t followed exactly you might give those a shout-out.
wow. thats horrible (about the kickstarter)
Sorry to hear that. Haven’t watched it yet, but I assume there’s graphics that talk about where the rules got messed up?
For myself, I watch Tabletop to get the sense of games I don’t know yet. By watching how people play them, I get a sense of the environment of the game, and whether I’d want to spend time there. I think if you messed up a game in a way which seriously decreased its fun factor for the group, you’d probably notice. (At least you have in the past.)
You might want to consider some of the writing of Bernie DeKoven about games. Rules are what make games fun – and yet, if following the rules diminishes the fun, Bernie would argue we’ve broken something inherent in “playing”. http://www.aplayfulpath.com/extraordinary-fun/
But thanks for the stand-up apology. I can get why, for people who want to watch to learn the game (or for existing fans who want to watch the game played right), it’s a big deal.
I’m gonna throw my hat into the “it doesn’t detract in any way from my enjoyment of the show” ring. The point of Tabletop, in my opinion, is to show people having fun and playing games. In that, it succeeds by leaps and bounds, regardless of rule missteps.
That said…I completely understand how you feel and don’t blame you for it. I’m a perfectionist too, and it SUCKS when you work so hard at something and it gets borked up anyway. I’m sending you big giant hugs, and hope that your frustration is eased somewhat by the knowledge that for every dickhead rules lawyer who’s gonna give you crap about not getting everything technically right, there are about a bajillion of us who just like to play and are happy to see others doing the same. <3
I always genuinely hate it when people are super picky about rules. However, if a screw-up is egregious, it probably should be noted. I kind of like Professor Owlbear pointing out the mistakes/house rules. It gives people the correct information while still remaining true to the Tabletop fun ethos.
Beyond that, let it go. We all still love TT. I loved watching Kingdom Builder, though you probably shouldn’t flirt so much with Yuri while his wife is sitting right there. 😉
I get that you’re frustrated and I totally understand why but I kinda thought you were more the kind of guy who would take someone out for a beer and try and solve their problems rather than condemn them. Maybe you did and it just doesn’t come across in this post so not judging but warm compassionate hugs to everyone involved including anyone who misread any rules or made any mistakes
I regularly don’t listen to the rules or read them properly and end up playing a slightly different version of the game or missing some crucial point but I still enjoy games and for me it’s nice to see other people do that too and how the rules can be misinterpreted. Perfect is usually less interesting.
English below:
Merci de prendre le temps de dire ton point de vue et de nous faire par de ton indignation. C’est effectivement dommage que cela se produise, mais vu par ta réponse, il va y avoir du changement. J’aime votre show, continuer comme ça.
Thank you to let us know what is on your mind. It is regretfull to see that happening but at least it seems it will change for the best. I love your show and keep going like that.
Wil, I am happy that you are doing what you telling us to do, Play More Games. I really am happy that I found Tabletop and if it weren’t for Tabletop I would not have gotten back into tabletop games. Your Apology is accepted and I am not worried about a rule slip up here and there. Keep doing what you do and rock on!
I have not seen the episode, but do appreciate the acknowledgement that errors may have been made in application of the rules. Alerting people to errors via post-production, or possibly a follow up (like the gag real) might be an option as well. However – as others stated – your show gives us a feel for the game, and a few rules violations shouldn’t affect one’s opinion on the play-ability of a game within their gaming circles. Here’s to a season 4! I also am offering my services as official Rules Enforcement Officer.
It was still a great show Wil. Watched it with my 7 year old son who loves the series.
Tabletop brought us into gaming and we have a collection of games mainly ones bought after seeing them on Tabletop. As a result we have spread the word through our wider family and friends and brought more people into gaming.
We usually watch to get a flavour of the games, what they are generally like to play and how enjoyable they are. Tabletop is second to none in this respect.
We particularly enjoyed seeing Kingdom Builder and will very likely buy the game as a direct result of seeing it on your show.
You have bought a lot of enjoyment to people and brought a lot of new people into gaming, so although it is refreshing that you care so much about providing a high quality show for everyone I think you are being too hard on yourself, the enjoyment factor is still there for all!
Thanks for all the enjoyment you have brought to us and please keep up the good work.
It’s good to see an apology but it would have perhaps been best placed on the video itself. This and a few other things this season have made me glad I didn’t pay to view but I still believe in the show going forward.
I randomly bumped into a pitch video for Tabletop via another speaker video at that con and have watched every show since, it’s led me to buy several of the games featured and made friends through gaming so i’m thankful for that. I do tend to use tabletop videos as an introduction to games, and Wil’s intro/rule videos are a highlight at many games nights ever since “the robber is a dick” debuted at my first meeting with some new gaming buddies.
Rules were meant to be broken, or bent at least. In the end, all the matters is they you had fun playing.
It does matter, but it did not detract from the viewing, an excellent episode, and what looks to be a great game. I really enjoy when you explain about the creators at the beginning, I think perhaps you should start an interview podcast with people involved with the games for the alternate weeks between new episodes along with the gag reels. 🙂
The shows production value is tremendously high, its a pleasure to the eye as much as the content within, so…
keep up the fantastic, if technically, incorrect! work 😛
Thanks for your honesty, Wil.
I want to let you know though, I really enjoyed the Kingdom Builder episode. At about 7 minutes in I was already IMing my friend that I want the game. And it was a very enjoyable episode to watch. The guests had great chemistry and it was obvious you were enjoying yourselves. So I hope you can also take some pride in this episode.
I’m a TT season 3 backer and I approve this episode!
It’s unfortunate that this person dropped the ball on more than one occasion. Perhaps some of it is just legitimate misunderstanding of the rules, and perhaps some of it is just a declining negligence. Whatever the case is. Admitting and owning up to mistakes made is noble, and make you a good person. Learning from said mistakes makes you sagely.
Don’t sweat the small stuff. People watch Tabletop to get an idea of how games work, they watch for the social interactions and funny instances that people what with each other. And most people also watch their show to stroke their beards and ask “What’s next for this Wil Wheaton?”
You’ve done a good thing here. That’s all that’s important.
Rules get botched all the time. You stayed consistent for the whole game, so no problem. The error certainly didn’t take away from my interest in the game.
the producers responsible for sacking the producers have been been sacked
In all the episodes I’ve seen, I’ve never had any moments where I felt like the missed rules detracted from the entertainment of the show. As long as it isn’t game breaking, chalk it up to being human. Half the fun of playing games together is coming up with variant rules to suit play style.
Keep on doing what you’re doing, you and your team have inspired a LOT of people (myself included) to go to their local gaming store and get involved in the tabletop community.
Still a great show, and it makes me want to play the game which seems to me to be the main point.
I read these kinds of thing as possible house rules – the main thing is the fun you and the other were having, and you really brought that forth in this episode. And the missed rule was applied consistently to everyone and conferred no special advantage.
Thank you for presenting another excellent game with enthusiasm and energy.
The important thing is that the players have fun. But the fact that game companies are supporters of the show does raise the question (as Wil says) of if it hurt their sales or their game in any way. Seeing how most of these games are sold out, in third printing, etc. within a week of the posting of the video, the companies have not too much to worry about. My only regret is that I backed a Kickstarter by said producer (should it be whom I think it is) and that is also MIA. But that is in no way TableTops fault.
Here is hoping that we have seasons 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, & 9 coming soon….
Compared to the overwhelming majority of people playing at home, you have a great track record overall with rules. Messing them up is as inevitable as Wil Wheaton Losing on Tabletop (TM).
I always viewed Tabletop as being entertaining first, and persuasive second. From what you say about the show, your prime directive is to get people excited and engaged in tabletop gaming as a whole, and you’re doing that fantastically. Accuracy weighs in at a distant third behind those goals.
You’re right in that this isn’t an insignificant thing, but it’s far from the most important.
Well, shit. But, ya know something? You’ve owned up to it. You’ve got a plan for the next season (I realize what’s done is done, all the eps were shot pretty much back-to-back, and you have to work with the footage you have).
I know you’re aiming for a representative play of the games you feature, and you want to show them accurately — that’s certainly the right approach — but out here in TableTopWorldLand, we screw up rules all the time when playing new games. The more complex the game, the more likely you are to miss something (and sometimes something critical) on the first play-through. Sometimes you catch it during play (usually when something Just Doesn’t Make Sense the way you were playing, and you go back to the ruleset and get that Ohhhhhh… moment), sometimes you don’t catch it until after. Sometimes the inadvertent alteration to the rules impacts play, but most of the time, it does nothing to detract from the fun of playing and learning a new game. You just make a note, and the next play through, you try to hold to the rules better.
But since you don’t have that option on the show, you make a note like you did here, or put in a little tag on the video when it’s released, and you address the systemic issue that caused it (which you’ve done), and you go on to the next thing. Yeah, it kinda sucks that it happened, but it doesn’t make the show less entertaining, and it’s a very human thing a) to make a mistake and b) own it and do what you must to make it better the next time.
I’m sorry this happened, Wil. I’m sorry you had to deal with the producer, who I know you’ve had a long relationship with. And I’m sorry you’re having to deal with the fallout, issue this apology, and add to your workload. But at the same time, I’m appreciative of your honesty about it, and also appreciative of your perfectionism on this thing you’ve created. Because that shows in the product, and it’s indicative of your character.
Non-judgmental Ninja says, “You still did a great job! You are loved!”
It’s all good. I understand that the show is also about showing how to play the games, but even with butchered rules, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this season of Table Top (even bought several of the games featured), and look forward to more seasons. Table Top is, by far, my favorite web series.
That’s does explain some things. Love you, Wil and what you do, so keep doing it. ❤️
Hey, I’m for anything that allows for more owlbear.
In my gaming group we refer to these types of things as “Winter Siberian Rules” (from golf – you don’t like your lie? how far can you throw?). As long as everyone agrees to them, what harm can it really do? It’s the fun that matters and that you seem to do quite well.
Just the fact that you left such a detailed and honest comment shows how much you care about not just games, but also gamers. Tabletop was the major influence for me when I got back into board gaming about three years ago now and is still my go-to source for many games.
Also, having produced and directed projects in the past, I can fully understand how having someone you trusted, and had done their job well in the past, allowed you to put that responsibility in their hands so you could put more focus in other areas of the show and how much it hurts when they let you down. Thanks for taking responsibility and I’m pretty sure the fans are gonna stick by you through it all.
I watch Table Top to view games I haven’t played yet. I see how they are played and mainly seeing the fellowship Of the players. I’d not worry of any mistakes. Any gamer master has made them. Table Top was made to showcase games and get folks interested. Which it has for me. I have many of these on my games shelf now ‘
You know, it was really not that bad. I was distacted by Yuri eating all the stuff anyway. Also, Professor Owlbear = best owlbear! Don’t worry too much, it was still a great episode! (And I’m still gonna buy the game, sooo… thanks, I guess?)
What’s this “if there’s another season” business? Tabletop is wonderful, there are so many more games out there, developers are making tons of money off of increased sales after each episode, and rules mistakes happen. Post-production catches the mistakes most of the time which is fine and now it seems like you guys have solved the root problem. Play more games! (and film them for Youtube!)
For me, a sign of a good game is that, even when you do it wrong, its still fun. I hope your producer’s okay. I may be projecting, but as someone who struggles with anxiety and depression, that kind of sudden drop off in job performance feels alarmingly familiar.
I am sorry this happened to you Wil. I know how much you care about the content you make. Perhaps there is a way to add text rule addendums or something in during a re-edit? Something that would not take too much time or money.
I doubt there is a game where I haven’t messed up the rules in some fashion, but like the others here, if the game still manages to be fun, then that is mission accomplished! The whole point is to bring family and friends together, and honestly, sometimes the strict adherence to the rules gets in the way.
That said, your honest apology is wonderful to hear, especially to the creators of the games, and frankly, not unexpected from you. Continue leading the way in not being a dick!
What I took from this is that there will be a fourth season. We learn from our mistakes. Thanks for allowing us to share our passion.
Really, I understand your feeling of responsibility and desire to uphold an incredibly high standard; however, I personally feel that when I purchase a game, the rules are up for interpretation. I’ll play the game however I see fit to meet the needs of the gamers and fit within time constraints.
I didn’t give your alteration of the rules a second thought. You just shared an alternate way to play. The show was as entertaining and enjoyable as ever.
There’s a really easy solution to this – rather than paying ANYONE at all, you could bring in a behind the scenes guest to each screening.
Someone perhaps that worked on the game, someone who personally loves the game or “knows” how to play. They would get a KICK out of being on-site and meeting the crew, you don’t even need to pay them, but you’d have that person fulfilling this producers job (without doing ANY work, because they already know the game) and it’s a revolving door.
Each session, each game, a new advisor on set.
I am sure it has been mentioned but I watch the show to learn about new games and if they look like they will be fun… the show delivers on that. Sure it would be great if the rules were perfectly enforced but who has not had a game night go off the rails, the key point is we play to have fun.
Of course as a small business owner I totally get being upset about entrusting a job to someone and them not delivering. I would say as long as the game makers themselves were not overly pissed at you guys at TT it is not something to stress about. We all want to put out a good product but sometimes things just get a little bumpy, especially when we grow our businesses.